Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 05-02-2013, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Where exactly is the indication that the Jews living in Galilee in the first century CE with the gospel story backdrop were descendants of gentiles originating from the Bekaa Valley and Lebanon who migrated to the Galilee and converted a century or so earlier under the Hasmoneans rather than native Jews who lived in the Galilee among gentiles??

I have not found any reference in the Talmud to the notion that the Jewish population living in the Galilee were specifically descendants of converts as opposed to Jews not descended from converts.

Anyway, here is a downloadable article that touches on the subject:
http://www.academia.edu/2383453/JOHN...dition_of_2006
And another article:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6475-galilee

Shaye J.D. Cohen
The beginnings of Jewishness
University of California Press, Berkeley, Los Angeles, London, 1999
ISBN 0520226937

Page 73 says

Quote:

Galileans like Idumaeans can be said to constitute an ethnos of their own

Page 114 say

Quote:

Similarly, the Ituraeans probably maintained their ethnic identity as well, at least at first

semiopen · 05-02-2013, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Where exactly is the indication that the Jews living in Galilee in the first century CE with the gospel story backdrop were descendants of gentiles originating from the Bekaa Valley and Lebanon who migrated to the Galilee and converted a century or so earlier under the Hasmoneans rather than native Jews who lived in the Galilee among gentiles??

I have not found any reference in the Talmud to the notion that the Jewish population living in the Galilee were specifically descendants of converts as opposed to Jews not descended from converts.

Anyway, here is a downloadable article that touches on the subject:
http://www.academia.edu/2383453/JOHN...dition_of_2006
And another article:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6475-galilee

Thanks for the links.

In the first:

Quote:

The question of the ethnic origins of Galilean Jewry often arises in research, but scholars have reached no consensus on it.

The first sentence of chapter 1 (above) is followed by this

Quote:

There is no disagreement about theJewish character of the population in Galilee during the period of the monarchies until the Assyrian conquest, even if it had been composed of original Jewish tribes and other people who had assimilated with them.

My Rabbi always takes some leeway in defining Jewish people, but this seems a little strong for a scholar of second temple Judaism. Jewish comes from Judah, and we don't usually see this term used in the first temple period. Even the bible says that there were idols in the first temple, but the shit that the rest of Israel was doing was much worse, which is why God bitch slapped them several centuries earlier than Judah.

That little weirdness aside, in between the Assyrian takeover of Galilee and the Hasmoneans, we have the exile to Babylon and almost 700 years, during which there is no obvious reason the Galileans would have much obvious contact with Judah. The centralization of the temple would not have affected whatever "Jews" that were living there until say 400 BCE or a period of almost 400 years. Figuring that the Judeans who did not go to Babylon were intermarrying with gentiles, etc in the 70 years of exile, how much more assimilated would the Galileans have become in ten times that amount of time?

Keep in mind that in the unlikely event that a Torah existed in first temple times, it is almost inconceivable that the Galileans would have had a copy. Not only do we have Jews without a temple, we also have Jews without a Torah.

The author also says that the Galilean Jews had loved going to the Temple even though Steve's friends the Samaritans were mean to them and quotes Josephus to prove this. However he also says that Josephus is spouting bullshit when stating that the Itureans were forced to convert.

Based on my initial observations, the paper seems dubious.

Just as an aside, Dr Rappaport seems to have a decent reputation, etc. but I've met some weird people from the University of Haifa.

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