Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 03-17-2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

If with the Pharisees ceremonial purity was a principal aim, with the Essenes it was an absorbing passion. It was enforced and guarded moreover by a special organization. While the Pharisees were a sect, the Essenes were an order. Like the Pythagoreans in Magna Græcia and the Buddhists in India before them, like the Christian monks of the Egyptian and Syrian deserts after them, they were formed into a religious brotherhood, fenced about by minute and rigid rules, and carefully guarded from any contamination with the outer world. Thus the sect may have arisen in the heart of Judaism. The idea of ceremonial purity was essentially Judaic. But still, when we turn to the representations of Philo and Josephus, it is impossible to overlook other traits which betoken foreign affinities. Whatever the Essenes may have been in their origin, at the Christian era at least and in the Apostolic age they no longer represented the current type of religious thought and practice among the Jews. This foreign element has been derived by some from the Pythagoreans, by others from the Syrians or Persians or even from the farther East; but, whether Greek or Oriental, its existence has until lately been almost universally allowed.
The investigations of Frankel, published first in 1846 in his Zeitschrift, and continued in 1853 in his Monatsschrift, have given a different direction to current opinion. Frankel maintains that Essenism was a purely indigenous growth, that it is only Pharisaism in an exaggerated form, and that it has nothing distinctive and owes nothing, or next to nothing, to foreign influences. To establish this point, he disparages the representation of Philo and Josephus as coloured to suit the tastes of their heathen readers, while in their place he brings forward as authorities a number of passages from talmudical and rabbinical writings, in which he discovers references to this sect. In this view he is followed implicitly by some later writers, and has largely influenced the opinions of others; while nearly all speak of his investigations as throwing great light on the subject.
It is perhaps dangerous to dissent from a view which has found so much favour; but nevertheless I am obliged to confess my belief that, whatever value Frankel’s investigations may have as contributions to our knowledge of Jewish religious thought and practice, they throw little or no light on the Essenes specially; and that the blind acceptance of his results by later writers has greatly obscured the distinctive features of this sect. I cannot but think that any one, who will investigate Frankel’s references and test his results step by step, will arrive at the conclusion to which I myself have been led, that his talmudical researches have left our knowledge of this sect where it was before, and that we must still refer to Josephus and Philo for any precise information respecting them.

http://philologos.org/__eb-jbl/essenes.htm

JB Lightfoot.

mountainman · 03-17-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Not that secret a group at all - gnostic pythagorean jews, possibly one of the pre Jesus xianities found around the med in Lyon, Alexandria etc. Got labelled Essenes in Palestine. Called Theraputae in Alexandria...

There may be two problems with this:

(1) The Therapeutae were stated by Philo to be ubiquitous in the empire, and the archaelogical and documentary evidence for the therapeutae of Asclepius is ubiquitous in the empire. As far as I am concerned, the therapeutae were some form of floating reserves from whom the custodial adminstration and service at the many and various temples which then existed were drawn. They congregated in Egypt annually but were otherwise spread over the entire empire. All this fits the archaeology. The therapeutae are also to be associated with what is known of the temple priesthood in the time of Apollonius of Tyana. The writings of Apollonius were apparently kept at the large and ancient temple to Asclepius at Aegae. Pythagoreanism, asceticism and many other attributes including the role as healers of bodies and souls are natural to the therapeutae.

(2) If we try and say that the "Essenes" were a regional name for the same group we are trying to say that these people were called "therapeutae" everywhere else, but in Palestine there were called "essenes" -- this does not stack up.

The "Essenes" appear to be something very like a "false signpost".
And we must not take our eyes off Eusebius for even one micro-second.
The "Essenes" may have been a "fabrication of later centralised-state christians".
Josephus, Philo, Pliny and others were "used and abused" fraudulently.
The testimonium flavianum is already evidence of this type of thing.
Who had the most to gain?
Josephus and/or Philo? Not likely.
Eusebius and his regime had alot to gain.
They sought "historical authenticity" via fraud.
See the fraud in Constantine's "Oration at Antioch".

Ancient historians looking for the origins of "christianity" march down to the first century looking for evidence and, finding absolutely no evidence whatseoever, come to a huge cross roads. The road stretches in two separate directions. There are two signposts, one pointing one direction to the antiquity therapeutae. One pointing down the road in the other direction labelled "to the antiquity of the Essenes".

Knowing in their heart of hearts that the "Therapeuta Road" leads to Pythagoras, and to Zeus, Apollo and Asclepius of the ancient and well established Hellenistic civilisation, it has been traditional and customary for "christian biblical historians" to take the "Essene Road". But perhaps it leads absolutely nowhere. Surely it is time to explore the other path? We do have evidence for the antiquity of the Therapeutae, and alot of it. Finally, IMO, the therapeutae were the [non-christian] gnostics.

maryhelena · 03-17-2009, 11:16 PM

If, as now sees highly likely, Josephus gave a 'historical' life to the Essenes, it does bring back to mind that other Jewish historian at that time, Justus of Tiberius.

This history is now lost - however it was read by Pontius (9th century) - who notes that there is no mention of Jesus in this history.

We know, from Josephus' own writing about Justus, that Josephus states that Justus "falsified in what he related about me" (Life 65). The context being about the Jewish wars. By all accounts these two men were not simply political but also literary rivals.

Josephus made sure that it was going to be his history that survived - seeking the patronage of Titus and Agrippa.

The interesting question now, in relationship to the Essenes, is the question of were they absent from the history of Justus? A history that Josephus goes out of his way to sow discredit to its author.....

Justus, from Tiberius in Galilee - unlike Philo and Pliny - was an actual eye witness of life in The Land of Israel during the years Josephus was recording his 'history' of the Essenes.............

maryhelena · 03-18-2009, 05:19 AM

Philo on the Essenes:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...er=E&artid=478

Quote:

“Some cultivate the soil, others pursue peaceful arts, toiling only for the provision of their necessary wants. . . . Among all men they alone are without money and without possession, but nevertheless they are the richest of all, because to have few wants and live frugally they regard as riches [comp. Abot iv. 1: "Who is rich? Who is contented with his lot? for it is said: 'When thou eatest the labor of thy hands happy art thou and it shall be well with thee'" (Ps. cxxviii. 2, Hebr.)]. Among them there is no maker of any weapon of war [comp. Shab. vi. 4], nor any trader, whether huckster or dealer in large merchandise on land or sea, nor do they follow any occupation that leads to injustice or to covetousness".

"....no maker of any weapon of war..”

Isaiah 2:4 “....and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks;.......neither shall they learn war any more.......”.

Plilo, being Jewish, could only ever see this prophecy being realized in The Land of Israel - whenever in the future it was to become a historical reality. Indeed, its roots were certainly there - not in historical fact but imbedded in prophecy...for centuries.

Josephus, wanting to make a ‘historical ‘case for the Essenes allowed them to carry weapons - for fear of thieves when traveling.

Interesting point on the 4,000 Essenes - Philo died 50 CE. Josephus published his work around 93/94 CE - and in all this time, over 40 years, the Essene numbers stayed the same!

An article on Wikipedia says that:

Quote:

“Philo analyzed the usage of numbers of the Bible, and believed that certain numbers symbolized different ideas”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo

So, 4000 = 40 X 100. 40 years being the wandering in the wilderness prior to entering the Promised Land. Josephus perhaps taking up on this number symbolism by stating that the Essenes lived to over the 100 years.

Clivedurdle · 03-18-2009, 05:38 AM

I am not arguing the Essenes and Theraputae are the same - but that the Essenes as Lightfoot put it are an early monastic order, bringing together the swords into ploughshare theme with vegetarian and ascetic themes.

I do not understand this assumption of Judaism over there and pagan gnostic thinking over here. This is an imposed idea by fundis - be ye separate!

Eusebius may have claimed them as proto xians - big mistake - he has only admitted these so called xian pacifist ideas were common in the graeco oriental world and were not original.

Clivedurdle · 03-18-2009, 05:43 AM

Try seeing this as interactions between groups

Zealots - want a pure Judaism, temple rules, willing to achieve it through war.

Pharisees, also want pure Judaism, but ask questions about what is just, what is the spirit of the law, also willing to fight

Essenes - their Judaism takes swords into plowshares stuff seriously, living a contemplative life.

maryhelena · 03-18-2009, 06:05 AM

http://jwest.wordpress.com/

quote

Quote:

Elior Responds to Eshel

March 18, 2009 — Jim

Professor Elior writes

If Hanan Eshel is so committed to the veracity and value of the Essenes theory, why then in his book, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Hasmonean State, (in Hebrew), yad ben zevi 2004 , the word Essenes is not mentioned even once? Everyone can look on the index of names p. 184 and note the complete absence of the Essenes and the vast number of refrences to the priests. the priest- teacher of rightousness, Zadok the priest and Zadokite/Sadducees in general. So if the priests are in the center of discussion (Hasmonean priests, Zaddokite Priests as they should be) why to hold to the Essenes who are not mentioned in the book?

I’ve just checked the English version of Eshel’s book and ‘Essene’ doesn’t occur in it either. Elior continues to pose interesting questions.

Clivedurdle · 03-18-2009, 07:08 AM

The link above by Lightfoot discusses where the word Essene came from - they probably did not call themselves that - in the same way Cathars never called themselves Cathars!

Or pagans pagans!

bacht · 03-18-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I am not arguing the Essenes and Theraputae are the same - but that the Essenes as Lightfoot put it are an early monastic order, bringing together the swords into ploughshare theme with vegetarian and ascetic themes.

I do not understand this assumption of Judaism over there and pagan gnostic thinking over here. This is an imposed idea by fundies - be ye separate!

It does seem like the Qumram group wanted to separate themselves from everything impure. But their writings suggest eschatological expectation of holy war/Armageddon rather than pacificism. At the least didn't they want justice on behalf of their persecuted Teacher?

Is it possible that the Qumram group, having set up their community in the 2nd C BCE, were known to Philo who then idealized them?

mountainman · 03-18-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Eusebius may have claimed them as proto xians - big mistake - he has only admitted these so called xian pacifist ideas were common in the graeco oriental world and were not original.

Certain sweeping claims and admission
require a certain amount of circumspect
especially from certain "historians" ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Try seeing this as interactions between groups

Interactions between groups change in times of peace and war.
Perhaps the "Essenes" were the ancestors of Ashoka's Buddhists?
But who were Ashoka's Buddhists? We know for example that
Mani's Buddhists were on the coinage of Shapur's brother in Persia
in the middle of the 3rd century. Who were the "essenes"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

The link above by Lightfoot discusses where the word Essene came from - they probably did not call themselves that - in the same way Cathars never called themselves Cathars!

Or pagans pagans!

Which party named the "Jews"?
Which party named the "New testament Gentiles" (and "NT Greeks"?)
Which party named the "Essenes"?
Which party named the "Christians"?
Which party named the "Pagans"?
Which party named the "Heretics"?
Which party named the "Porphyrians"?
Which party named the "Arians"?
Which party named the "Galilaeans"? (TRICK QUESTION! WATCH OUT!!)
Which party named the "New Testament Canon"?
Which party named the "New Testament Apocrypha"?
Which party named the "Nestorians"?
etc
etc
etc
etc

When does the intellectual property expire?

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03-17-2009, 11:16 PM	#53
maryhelena Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: England Posts: 2,527	If, as now sees highly likely, Josephus gave a 'historical' life to the Essenes, it does bring back to mind that other Jewish historian at that time, Justus of Tiberius. This history is now lost - however it was read by Pontius (9th century) - who notes that there is no mention of Jesus in this history. We know, from Josephus' own writing about Justus, that Josephus states that Justus "falsified in what he related about me" (Life 65). The context being about the Jewish wars. By all accounts these two men were not simply political but also literary rivals. Josephus made sure that it was going to be his history that survived - seeking the patronage of Titus and Agrippa. The interesting question now, in relationship to the Essenes, is the question of were they absent from the history of Justus? A history that Josephus goes out of his way to sow discredit to its author..... Justus, from Tiberius in Galilee - unlike Philo and Pliny - was an actual eye witness of life in The Land of Israel during the years Josephus was recording his 'history' of the Essenes.............

03-18-2009, 05:38 AM	#55
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I am not arguing the Essenes and Theraputae are the same - but that the Essenes as Lightfoot put it are an early monastic order, bringing together the swords into ploughshare theme with vegetarian and ascetic themes. I do not understand this assumption of Judaism over there and pagan gnostic thinking over here. This is an imposed idea by fundis - be ye separate! Eusebius may have claimed them as proto xians - big mistake - he has only admitted these so called xian pacifist ideas were common in the graeco oriental world and were not original.

03-18-2009, 05:43 AM	#56
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Try seeing this as interactions between groups Zealots - want a pure Judaism, temple rules, willing to achieve it through war. Pharisees, also want pure Judaism, but ask questions about what is just, what is the spirit of the law, also willing to fight Essenes - their Judaism takes swords into plowshares stuff seriously, living a contemplative life.

03-18-2009, 07:08 AM	#58
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The link above by Lightfoot discusses where the word Essene came from - they probably did not call themselves that - in the same way Cathars never called themselves Cathars! Or pagans pagans!

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