No Robots

What I can do is move from one idea to another if I sincerely see it as better. I do not see anything better than what I have presented. It is great to be a seeker, but the object of seeking is finding.


You have an utterly distorted understanding of what constitutes evidence. The gospels are evidence. They are evidence of a great genius of mysticism. That you reject this evidence is part of your conditioning. What you do is typically Kantian in that you use skepticism where it is useful, but do not emerge from it to present any coherent approach to the evidence.

I have stated over and over that I embrace Spinoza's method of Bible interpretation. This is the very foundation of scientific analysis of the Bible, and your constant dismissals of it without any substantiation reveal that, for all your claims to rigorous devotion to the evidence, you really do not have the wherewithal to engage seriously with the material.

Ben C Smith

Somehow I knew you would dislike Kate Bush.

Ben.

spamandham

...don't forget this post!

In terms of intensity of devotion, I would argue Muhammed's followers are more devout. Your argument seems to boil down to "Christinaity is popular today, therefor Jesus existed". It doesn't follow.

I don't feel the need to explain this, as it is very unlikely true. The dirth of pre-Constantine Christian artifacts demonstrates that Christianity was relatively insignificant up to that point.

Christianity continues to grow in absolute numbers, because the population continues to grow. But as a fraction of world population, Christianity ceased growing about 100 years ago, which coincides with the decline of English imperialism.

See the demographics section of the wiki.

So, there's nothing that requires explanation.

spin

Not true. It's just that the song doesn't have the range to display what I was commenting on.


spin

spin

Not necessarily.

The gospels are data. It is how you use the data that makes it evidence. You don't do anything with it in the context of your claims about the am ha-aretz etc., hence no evidence.

Can I tie a rope around your leg and bring you back to ground for a moment? We are dealing with specific issues, not your views of great mysticism.

When you have evidence in the issue of contextualization for the content of the gospels, please let me know when you present it.

Methodology is seen in the material you present with its evidence, not in your claims of intellectual dependence.


spin

teamonger

In terms of the synoptics, I agree to a point... there is a historical core Jesus preacher who shines through (although I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "spirit of genius").

But in the case of the fourth gospel, I disagree, simply because this gospel portrays such an utterly different Jesus. This difference has lead scholars like Sanders to mostly reject it as a source of useful Jesus history; rather it is a later theological development, someone listening to the Jesus in his head in a rather gnostic fashion. Even church fathers referred to it as a "spiritual" gospel.

t

Ben C Smith

Okay.

I prefer Babooshka for Kate Bush romance anyway.

Ben.

spin

Running Up That Hill.


spin

Ben C Smith

That was the first song I ever heard by her, and the reason I bought one of her albums.

Ben.

patcleaver

The New Testament has almost nothing to do with the success of Christianity. Scrolls were very expensive and no evidence that early Christians even had scrolls. There is little evidence that Christians even had any writings before the 4th century. Even then private individuals would not have had the books. During medieval period the Church forbid anyone except the clergy to even possess the New Testament, and only a few portions were even recited at Mass. Most people just ignore the Scripture reading anyway – the sermon is usually much more relevant.

The spread of Christianity was primarily due to the effect of an imaginary extortion scheme on the weak and gullible. Christianity theatens you with violance, that if you do not become a Christian, that you will burn alive forever in a lake of fire. And if you believe, then you get to party for eternity in heaven with all your loved ones. No other religion at the time had a better imaginary protection racket.

Also, Christians are commanded to convert non-Christians to Christianity by their book of fiction, and if you convert others to Christianity then you will receive an enhanced imaginary rewarded in heaven.

The new testament is trash. I have read the whole thing, and I have read the gospel of Mark many times, and it is just retched. In the gospels Jesus is a despicable idiot.

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Jesus is despicable because he advocates violence:

"Bring mine enemies before me, who would not that I should rule over them, slay them at my feet."
--Luke 27:11

"But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
--Luke 22:36:

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Jesus is despicable because he laid the groundwork for the inquisition:

“Go out into the highways and hedges; and compel them to come in. That my house may be full"
--Luke 14:23

“Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares (unbelievers), and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat (Christians) into my barn.”
--Matthew 13:29-30

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
--John 15:5-6

These are some of the Scripture that St. Augustine, the utterly evil author of the inquisition, used to justify torturing and murdering Jews and heretics. If it’s alright for Jesus to burn innocent Jews and heretics alive forever then it must be alright for us to have them slowly burned to death for a day.

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Jesus is despicable for claiming that he was god if he was not God.

If Jesus was God, then Jesus was despicable for not saying anything to stop the burning of tens of millions of innocent Jews and heretics and alleged witches and the religious wars that were waged over slight differences of interpretation of what he said, and not saying anything to end slavery and other authoritarian suppression of human rights.

If Jesus was not God, then he is despicable because all his miracles including his resurrection were frauds.

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Jesus is a despicable hypocrite because:

first Jesus tells us to love our enemies:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."
--Matthew 5:43

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you”.
Luke 6:26

And then Jesus does not love his enemies, because he says:

"Bring mine enemies before me, who would not that I should rule over them, slay them at my feet."
--Luke 27:11

"Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned [to hell]”.
--Mark 16:15-16

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

"The fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." -- Revelation 21:8

Not only doesn’t Jesus love his enemies, he hates those who have not even done anything to offend him at all. Jesus tortures innocent people by burning them alive in a lake of fire forever.

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Jesus is dishonest for lying to the high priest that he never taught in secret.

And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
--Mark 4:10-13

He [Jesus] said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, " 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'
--Luke 8:10

And he(Jesus) turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Luke 10:23-24

And the disciples came, and said unto him(Jesus), Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He(Jesus) answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias(Isaiah), which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
--Matt 13:10-15

“Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;…”
--Matthew 13:36-37

The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine. Jesus answered him "I have spoken openly to the world, I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.”
John 18:20

Jesus taught secretly and then lied to the High Priest about it.

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Jesus is despicable for lying to his brothers about not going to the festival

“You go to the Feast. I am not yet[a] going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come." Having said this, he stayed in Galilee. However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.
John 7:8-10

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Jesus is a despicable idiot because he tells us to do conflicting things.

“In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. “
Matthew 5:16

"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.”
Matthew 6:1

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Jesus is a despicable because he says that his message is opposite things

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
--John 14:27

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
--Matthew 10:34

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Jesus is an idiot because he doesn’t know that Elijah went to heaven before him.

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
--2 Kings 2:11

“No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”
--John 3:13

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Jesus is an idiot because he did not know that Moses had seen God.

The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
--Exodus 33:11

“No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a][b]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.”
--John 1:18

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Jesus is an idiot because he does not know who is for him or against him.

“for whoever is not against us is for us.”
Mark 9:40

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.”
Luke 11:23

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Jesus is despicable because he continually breaks his promise to grant prayers.

“Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. “
Mark 11:24

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14 we find the same thing:

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
John 14:12-14

"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Mark 11:23-24

"Ask, and it will be given to you."
Matthew 7:7

"Nothing will be impossible for you."
--Matthew 17:20

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
--Matthew 21:21

The Christian ritualistic magic known as prayer has no effect at all regardless of what incantations they recite, because there is no such thing as magic.

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Jesus is despicable because Jesus lied about where the devil took him.

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
--Matthew 4:8

There is no Mountain top from which Jesus could see all the kingdoms of the world from Celtic Ireland to the Aztecs of Mexico. In fact even from Mount Everest, you can only see about 250 miles.

Jesus is ignorant about the shape of the earth because he must have thought that the earth is flat to believe that you can see the whole earth from a mountaintop.

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Jesus is ignorant about biology because he thinks the mustard seed is the smallest seed and that mustard bushes are trees.

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Jesus is ignorant of the cause of disease – he thinks diseases are caused by demonic possession and cures diseases by magical exorcisms.

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Jesus thinks that sin causes sickness. He cures people by forgiving them of sin. It is evil slander against everyone who has ever been sick - especially children.

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Jesus is ignorant that the Jewish scriptures are fiction. He thinks that Adam and Eve are real, that there really was a Noah’s flood, that Moses really lead an exodus, that Jonah really lived in the belly of a fish for three days and three nights.

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Jesus is despicable because he lied about the sign of Jonah and being in the ground for three days and three nights.

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matthew 12:40

Jesus was only in the tomb for one day and two nights – the prophesy failed.

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Jesus was ignorant about cosmology because he thought that stars would fall to earth at the end of the world

And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:25

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Jesus is despicable for lying about returning in the lifetime of his audience.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. … Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mark 13:26, 30

Jesus did not come back within a generation – the prophesy failed.

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Jesus is despicable because he is an ethnic bigot.

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
Matthew 15:22-26

Jesus calls this woman a dog because she is not the right nationality.

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Jesus is despicable because he is a thief

As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two of his disciples, saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and just as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. If anyone asks you, 'Why are you doing this?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.' "
Mark 11:1-3

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Jesus uses his killing curse to vandalize a fig tree simply because it did not have figs when it was not the season for figs

The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.
--Mark 11:12-14

In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
--Mark 11:20-21

If Jesus wanted figs why didn’t he just take out his magic wand and cast his instant fruit growing spell.

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Jesus is despicable because he killed 2,000 pigs, that belonged to someone else, for no good reason at all. See Matthew 8:28-34

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Jesus is despicable because he says stupid things that are likely to cause people to do stupid things.

"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”
Matthew 18:7-9

He should have known that his followers would maime their children to avoid temptation.

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Jesus is despicable for interrupting necessary Temple commerce.

On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.
Mark 11:15-16

This is ridiculous.

This shows an utter lack of knowledge of Jewish culture. The Jewish law required the sacrifice and the priests were not allowed to accept coins with graven images.

This shows an utter lack of knowledge of the layout of the Jewish Temple. Jesus would have had to have hundreds of followers to control the crowds because the temple courtyard is larger then several football fields.

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Jesus is despicable because he makes contradictory demands.

Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:26

Jesus says, "Love your enemy" and "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." And follow the law and one of the commandments is to honor your father and mother.

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Jesus is despicable because he makes contradictory ambiguous statements about what we have to do to obtain eternal life:

What do you have to do to get to heaven?

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In Luke 10:25-28:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

All you have to do to get to heaven is love God and love your neighbor. Right?

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In Luke 18:18-22 Jesus says:

A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"

"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.

When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

All you have to do to get to heaven is obey the commandments and give away all that you own and follow Jesus (as a man).

The answers in Luke 10 and Luke 18 are totally different.

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Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
John 6:53-58

To get to heaven, you have to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus.
You have to be a Catholic cannibal to get to heaven.

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He called a little child and had him stand among them. And [Jesus] said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 18:2-3

All you have to do to get to heaven is to become like a little child.
Little children are all atheists - excellent.

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In John 3:3-8

[Jesus said] "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

You cannot get to heaven unless you are born again of the spirit. Is it baptism?, is it Catholic confirmation?, is it a second baptism?. There is no consensus among Christians on what this means. If you have to be born again to get to heaven and you are wrong about what it means, then you’re screwed.

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"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 5:17-20

The Pharisees were anal compulsives about keeping the Jewish laws. Our righteousness, and our adherence to the laws of the old testament, must exceed that of the Pharisees in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. Which means we need to start killing a whole lot of people.

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“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
John 14:6

This one does not explain what we have to do. Do we even need to “come to the Father” for eternal life?

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For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

Sounds great, but Jesus did not say it. Jesus said all the incoherent trash above the last one.

All these contradictory statements about the most important core message of the gospels just indicates that it’s all fantasy.

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Maybe Jesus was just crazy.

And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
John 10:20

And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself (crazy). And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Mark 3:21-22

His family thought he was crazy, and they knew him better than anybody else.