Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 01-13-2012, 10:40 AM

Let me make clear, I am not ARGUING that Marqe is in fact Philo. I am only saying that it might be possible:

What? You have never read even a portion of Embassy to Gaius? You have never read In Flaccum? isn't he defending his own people in these works?

What does In Flaccum have to do with anything? What if Jews and Samaritans venerated God in the same temple in Alexandria? There's just too much we don't know about the religious life of these people.

Let's start with the facts. Jews and Samaritans left Palestine with Ptolemy to settle in Alexandria. They settled in the same part of Alexandria (= the cow pasture). There might even have been a temple of some sort constructed in the area. The Jewish and Samaritan traditions get closer to one another the further back you go (= because the Sadducees were common to both and Gerizim was the original place of worship for both?)

Sorry the neighbor's cat is outside. Big event in the house especially for my dog

stephan huller · 01-13-2012, 10:45 AM

So if we are talking about 'Samaritans' in Alexandria we are talking about the Dositheans (who were still a force in the city down to at least the sixth century). There are indications that the Dositheans had some features shared in common with the Jews (the year beginning in the seventh month etc). The Dositheans are also said to have been an early (and even 'the earliest') Christian sect or proto-Christian sect. Is there some overlap here? There is a culture (or perhaps many cultures, a typology) we have lost touch with in Alexandria. Are 'Jews' in Alexandria really 'Jewish'? No Hanukkah for instance until very late. Different Pentateuch. Different temple? Different traditions?

It is a big 'who knows' throughout. We know almost nothing even about who Philo is.

stephan huller · 01-13-2012, 10:58 AM

"The allegorical method, in the hands of Philo and Marqah, involves treating philosophy as if it were present in the Pentateuch as the hidden meaning of verses, and revealing the hidden meaning. It is evident from this that, considered from the purely methodological point of view, there are wide-ranging similarities between Philo and Marqah. But, as I hope to show, the similarities are more wide-ranging still. For on numerous philosophical matters the ideas of the two thinkers coincide, and even their modes of expression often bear, despite language differences, an undeniable similarity. It is no part of my aim here to argue that Marqah had read Philo, though the proposition that he had done would not, in view of the similarities, be bizarre — particularly in view of the presence in Alexandria of a large Samaritan community in Alexandria who no doubt maintained close links with Shechem. It is enough for my purposes if I give grounds for believing that the cultural ethos of the Hellenistic Jews of Alexandria coincides at certain crucial points with the cultural ethos of the Samaritans of Shechem." [Alexander Broadie, A Samaritan Philosophy p. 6]

la70119 · 01-13-2012, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The other interesting thing I found are a number of allusions to the christogram being used by ancients to highlight 'useful' passages in books, in other words that it began as a sign for chrestos not christos. From Senator Cassiodorus's works:

Quote:

Tyconius the Donatist also added some unobjectionable material on this book, but he contaminated some of it with the foul teachings of his poisonous belief; where appropriate I have affixed the chresimon on the approved statements and on all unacceptable statements I found in reading through it I have fixed the mark of disapproval, the achriston I urge you to do likewise on suspect commentators so that the reader will not be bewildered by the admixture of unacceptable teachings.

Of course Cassiodorus lived long after Christianity was established. Yet who in their right mind could argue that Christians adapted the holy symbol of Christ (chi-rho) to signify chrestos. Clearly the practice antedates the Christian religion. Now start thinking about Jesus being crucified on this symbol and you'll start to see what is being referenced ...

Yes, it does. The sign was even used to denote the Star of Herod the Great and the Star of Julius Caesar.

A bronze coin minted during the reign of Herod the great clearly shows a chresimon or star on top of a helmet. (At the link in the quote below, this star is in the form of a Latin Cross, or tropaeum.)

Quote:

...obverse military helmet facing, with cheek pieces and straps, wreathed with acanthus leaves, star above, flanked by two palm-branches...

http://www.forumancientcoins.com

On the Star of Julius Caesar: it is plainly a chresimon.

Quote:

Due to the rays shooting from behind his head, Christ is usually interpreted to be a sun god here. In reality these rays are not the rays of the sun, but go back to the sidus Iulium (“Julian star”), the great comet of 44 BCE. Caesar was officially consecrated in 42 BCE, which was the apotheosis of the Roman imperial cult that also included the ascension of the god. But the comet, which appeared in July 44 BCE during Caesar’s funeral games, was seen by the people as Caesar’s soul in heaven, a popular ascension before the senatorial consecratio one and a half years later (Dio HR 45.7.1; Suet. Jul. 88). On the following coin we see Divus Iulius on the left holding a spear and a Victoria. He is crowned with the Julian star by the Son of God (Divi filius) Octavian (with shield). During this time Octavian crowned all statues of Divus Iulius with replicas of the comet (Serv. Aen. 8.681; Serv. Buc. 9.46 sq.; Sil. Pun. 13.862–64; Dio HR 45.7.1; Suet. Jul. 88), and this was the origin of the rayed iconography in early Christianity. [Ed-M: maybe. I am skeptical about this Caesar to Jesus hypothesis.]

http://divusjulius.wordpress.com/201...schristcaesar/

stephan huller · 01-13-2012, 11:13 AM

This is very important, la. I think we've found another piece to the puzzle. If the chresimon = star than the reality of crucifixion by chresimon is the fulfillment of God's promise to the Israelites to be translated into stars (Genesis 15 etc). The idea of being transformed into stars is very important to Philo no less than Paul (1 Cor 15). I even think a similar passage is preserved in Slavonic Josephus

stephan huller · 01-13-2012, 11:18 AM

Of course we still have to come to terms with the ultimate question - HTF did a cult of crucifixion infect the exegesis of the Pentateuch? It's one thing to allow for the idea that one mentally ill person thought that being impaled on a star was a great idea. But how did this “catch on”?

la70119 · 01-13-2012, 11:34 AM

Speaking of facts...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Philo (20 BCE – 50 CE), known also as Philo of Alexandria (Greek: Φίλων ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς), Philo Judaeus, Philo Judaeus of Alexandria, Yedidia, "Philon", and Philo the Jew, was a Hellenistic Jewish Biblical philosopher born in Alexandria.

Philo used philosophical allegory to attempt to fuse and harmonize Greek philosophy with Jewish philosophy. His method followed the practices of both Jewish exegesis and Stoic philosophy. His allegorical exegesis was important for several Christian Church Fathers, but he has barely any reception history within Judaism. "The sophists of literalness," as he calls the literalist Jews,^[1] "opened their eyes superciliously" when he explained to them the marvels of his exegesis. He believed that literal interpretations of the Hebrew Bible would stifle mankind's view and perception of a God too complex and marvelous to be understood in literal human terms.

Some scholars hold that his concept of the Logos as God's creative principle influenced early Christology. Other scholars, however, deny direct influence but say both Philo and Early Christianity borrow from a common source.^[2] For Philo, the Logos was God's "blueprint for the world", a governing plan.

The few biographical details concerning Philo are found in his own works, especially in Legatio ad Gaium ("embassy to Gaius"), and in Josephus.^[3] The only event in his life that can be determined chronologically is his participation in the embassy in which the Alexandrian Jews were sent to the emperor Caligula at Rome as the result of civil strife between the Alexandrian Jewish and Hellenized communities. This occurred in the year 40 CE.

^[1] De Somniis, i.16-17
^[2] Keener, Craig S., The Gospel of John: A Commentary, Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson Publishers, 2003, vol.1, pp.343-347
^[3] Antiquities xviii.8, § 1; comp. ib. xix.5, § 1; xx.5, § 2

Wikipedia - Philo

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 18.8.1

Quote:

THERE was now a tumult arisen at Alexandria, between the Jewish inhabitants and the Greeks; and three ambassadors were chosen out of each party that were at variance, who came to Caius. Now one of these ambassadors from the people of Alexandria was Apion, who uttered many blasphemies against the Jews; and, among other things that he said, he charged them with neglecting the honors that belonged to Caesar; for that while all who were subject to the Roman empire built altars and temples to Caius, and in other regards universally received him as they received the gods, these Jews alone thought it a dishonorable thing for them to erect statues in honor of him, as well as to swear by his name. Many of these severe things were said by Apion, by which he hoped to provoke Caius to anger at the Jews, as he was likely to be. But Philo, the principal of the Jewish embassage, a man eminent on all accounts, brother to Alexander the alabarch, and one not unskillful in philosophy, was ready to betake himself to make his defense against those accusations; but Caius prohibited him, and bid him begone; he was also in such a rage, that it openly appeared he was about to do them some very great mischief. So Philo being thus affronted, went out, and said to those Jews who were about him, that they should be of good courage, since Caius's words indeed showed anger at them, but in reality had already set God against himself.

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 19.5.1

Quote:

NOW when Claudius had taken out of the way all those soldiers whom he suspected, which he did immediately, he published an edict, and therein confirmed that kingdom to Agrippa which Caius had given him, and therein commended the king highly. He also made all addition to it of all that country over which Herod, who was his grandfather, had reigned, that is, Judea and Samaria; and this he restored to him as due to his family. But for Abila 1 of Lysanias, and all that lay at Mount Libanus, he bestowed them upon him, as out of his own territories. He also made a league with this Agrippa, confirmed by oaths, in the middle of the forum, in the city of Rome: he also took away from Antiochus that kingdom which he was possessed of, but gave him a certain part of Cilicia and Commagena: he also set Alexander Lysimachus, the alabarch, at liberty, who had been his old friend, and steward to his mother Antonia, but had been imprisoned by Caius, whose son [Marcus] married Bernice, the daughter of Agrippa. But when Marcus, Alexander's son, was dead, who had married her when she was a virgin, Agrippa gave her in marriage to his brother Herod, and begged for him of Claudius the kingdom of Chalcis.

Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 20.5.2

Quote:

Then came Tiberius Alexander as successor to Fadus; he was the son of Alexander the alabarch of Alexandria, which Alexander was a principal person among all his contemporaries, both for his family and wealth: he was also more eminent for his piety than this his son Alexander, for he did not continue in the religion of his country.

So yes, the historic report shows that Philo was recognised by his contemporaries and a near-contemporary, Josephus, as (Hellenic) Jewish.

la70119 · 01-13-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

This is very important, la. I think we've found another piece to the puzzle. If the chresimon = star than the reality of crucifixion by chresimon is the fulfillment of God's promise to the Israelites to be translated into stars (Genesis 15 etc). The idea of being transformed into stars is very important to Philo no less than Paul (1 Cor 15). I even think a similar passage is preserved in Slavonic Josephus

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Of course we still have to come to terms with the ultimate question - HTF did a cult of crucifixion infect the exegesis of the Pentateuch? It's one thing to allow for the idea that one mentally ill person thought that being impaled on a star was a great idea. But how did this “catch on”?

I have no idea how it caught on, except that at the funeral Julius Caesar, Marc Anthony had the "bright idea" of displaying his body, complete with its 23 stab wounds, in imago on a cruciform tropaeum. This is obviously the source of all Catholic iconography of Christ crucified on a Latin Cross, to both literalize and historicize the event and keep clear the Christian mind of the cruel, unusual and humiliating memory of actual Roman Crucifixion.

Francesco Carotta - Jesus Was Caesar - Crux

Youtube: Calpurnpiso - Caesar Christ Wax Imago was ROOT of Jesus Myth Crucifixion...

Of course, the Latin Cross Crucifixion was not depicted until after 325 CE.

la70119 · 01-13-2012, 11:54 AM

Francesco Carotta's reconstruction of the crucifixion of Julius Caesar in imago:

I need to do some errands now...

stephan huller · 01-13-2012, 12:05 PM

I have my reservations about the historical reliability of antiquities. The text was developed in obvious imitation of Dionysius's Roman Antiquities. By whom? An Aramaic speaking Pharisaic who admits to having difficulties with Greek language and culture? The text was developed by someone in Josephus's name (one or many synergoi). The historical Josephus likely only wrote the hypomnema behind Jewish War as Cohen and others have already demonstrated

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01-13-2012, 10:40 AM	#91
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Let me make clear, I am not ARGUING that Marqe is in fact Philo. I am only saying that it might be possible: What? You have never read even a portion of Embassy to Gaius? You have never read In Flaccum? isn't he defending his own people in these works? What does In Flaccum have to do with anything? What if Jews and Samaritans venerated God in the same temple in Alexandria? There's just too much we don't know about the religious life of these people. Let's start with the facts. Jews and Samaritans left Palestine with Ptolemy to settle in Alexandria. They settled in the same part of Alexandria (= the cow pasture). There might even have been a temple of some sort constructed in the area. The Jewish and Samaritan traditions get closer to one another the further back you go (= because the Sadducees were common to both and Gerizim was the original place of worship for both?) Sorry the neighbor's cat is outside. Big event in the house especially for my dog

01-13-2012, 10:45 AM	#92
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	So if we are talking about 'Samaritans' in Alexandria we are talking about the Dositheans (who were still a force in the city down to at least the sixth century). There are indications that the Dositheans had some features shared in common with the Jews (the year beginning in the seventh month etc). The Dositheans are also said to have been an early (and even 'the earliest') Christian sect or proto-Christian sect. Is there some overlap here? There is a culture (or perhaps many cultures, a typology) we have lost touch with in Alexandria. Are 'Jews' in Alexandria really 'Jewish'? No Hanukkah for instance until very late. Different Pentateuch. Different temple? Different traditions? It is a big 'who knows' throughout. We know almost nothing even about who Philo is.

01-13-2012, 10:58 AM	#93
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	"The allegorical method, in the hands of Philo and Marqah, involves treating philosophy as if it were present in the Pentateuch as the hidden meaning of verses, and revealing the hidden meaning. It is evident from this that, considered from the purely methodological point of view, there are wide-ranging similarities between Philo and Marqah. But, as I hope to show, the similarities are more wide-ranging still. For on numerous philosophical matters the ideas of the two thinkers coincide, and even their modes of expression often bear, despite language differences, an undeniable similarity. It is no part of my aim here to argue that Marqah had read Philo, though the proposition that he had done would not, in view of the similarities, be bizarre — particularly in view of the presence in Alexandria of a large Samaritan community in Alexandria who no doubt maintained close links with Shechem. It is enough for my purposes if I give grounds for believing that the cultural ethos of the Hellenistic Jews of Alexandria coincides at certain crucial points with the cultural ethos of the Samaritans of Shechem." [Alexander Broadie, A Samaritan Philosophy p. 6]

01-13-2012, 11:13 AM	#95
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	This is very important, la. I think we've found another piece to the puzzle. If the chresimon = star than the reality of crucifixion by chresimon is the fulfillment of God's promise to the Israelites to be translated into stars (Genesis 15 etc). The idea of being transformed into stars is very important to Philo no less than Paul (1 Cor 15). I even think a similar passage is preserved in Slavonic Josephus

01-13-2012, 11:18 AM	#96
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Of course we still have to come to terms with the ultimate question - HTF did a cult of crucifixion infect the exegesis of the Pentateuch? It's one thing to allow for the idea that one mentally ill person thought that being impaled on a star was a great idea. But how did this “catch on”?

01-13-2012, 11:54 AM	#99
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	Francesco Carotta's reconstruction of the crucifixion of Julius Caesar in imago: I need to do some errands now...

01-13-2012, 12:05 PM	#100
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I have my reservations about the historical reliability of antiquities. The text was developed in obvious imitation of Dionysius's Roman Antiquities. By whom? An Aramaic speaking Pharisaic who admits to having difficulties with Greek language and culture? The text was developed by someone in Josephus's name (one or many synergoi). The historical Josephus likely only wrote the hypomnema behind Jewish War as Cohen and others have already demonstrated

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