Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 05-09-2007, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Guys - if you want me to split this off so you can restate your prior arguments on Josephus, I will. Otherwise, please stick to the topic - EMPTY TOMB OF HEROD DISCOVERED. (WHERE IS THE BODY?)

I think Matthew 28's resurrection of the saints covers that subject quite well.

Lucretius · 05-09-2007, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Rightmire

Somehow, I think this argument is fallacious from the beginning. There is great joy in the Christian community because the finding of the tomb would prove the existence of Herod. From my history, I didn't think there was much doubt that at least two Herods were kings in Palestine of the time. And again, why is it that important. The existence of Herod only indicates that the story tellers of the time needed some time and place in which to locate the story. It doesn't make the story true. I've seen novels about LA and New York City and New Orleans and Miami that mention real people, but that doesn't make the story the novelist is telling any more factual.:Cheeky:

Precisely I don't think that there has ever been any doubt about the existence of Herod around that period ,indeed Herod the Great's grandson Herod Agrippa I lived in Rome at the Imperial courts of both Caligula and Claudius.
As far as this being the Tomb of (THAT)Herod there appears to be very little corroborating evidence so far ,it does appear that it is the tomb of someone "regal" from the small fragment of the sarcophagus that has a "royal rosette" on it.
However there does not as yet appear to be any insciptions or even adequate dating material and as such even if it is Herods Tomb could at least in my opinion even be the tomb of a later Herod such as Herod Agrippa (I or II)

Ben C Smith · 05-09-2007, 05:52 AM

I think some have missed the tongue-in-cheek effect of my OP.

Who has ever doubted the existence of Herod the great? (If somebody has, I would stand corrected, but I would feel ashamed for humanity to stand corrected on this one.)

Ben.

Malachi151 · 05-09-2007, 05:55 AM

It's just like the finding of the inscription about Pilate, and the earliest Christian Church in Israel, both of which Christians claimed as support for their Gospel, and both of which really undermine their story.

While some people did doubt the existence of Pilate, really the information that we have regarding Pilate, mostly Philo's discussion of his rule, is evidence that supports the non-existence of Jesus.

As for the early Christian church that was found in Israel, it's artwork was commissioned by a Roman military officer and Jesus is depicted as Pisces and called simply a god.

As for Herod, the real existence of Herod and the time of his death is what allows us to conclude that the Gospels of Luke and Matthew are contradictory, and what we know about Herod also shows that the "Massacre of the Innocents" is unlikely at best.

So, in reality, all of these things, Pilate, Herod, the early Christian evidence, all works against the Gospel stories, not in their favor. <edit>

Lucretius · 05-09-2007, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

I think some have missed the tongue-in-cheek effect of my OP.

Who has ever doubted the existence of Herod the great? (If somebody has, I would stand corrected, but I would feel ashamed for humanity to stand corrected on this one.)

Ben.

On another board I frequent (a non atheist non reilgious board incidentally ) I was actually "accused" of being a "Herod Mythicist" by a Christian just because I disputed the "Massacre of the Innocents"

So while far from being someone who denies Herods existence it does appear that some (well ONE anyway ) Christians seem to think that if we dispute the alleged massacre then we are also disputing Herod's existence

Larsguy47 · 05-09-2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hex

Right ... 'Cause he wasn't a warrior and he didn't physically rebuild The Temple ...

But, dare I say it, I agree with Lars?

To a point?

There is a first and second coming. He does some things the first time and some the second. If we were to make a very general comparison, the first time he comes as a sacrifice, the second as a king-priest just prior to his 1000-year rule. The "temple" he rebuilds is a spiritual one, made up of real people. And, yes, "temple" is also an allegory for the body itself. So everything was fulfilled. It's not that hard to follow. Is it?

LG47

Larsguy47 · 05-09-2007, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucretius

On another board I frequent (a non atheist non reilgious board incidentally ) I was actually "accused" of being a "Herod Mythicist" by a Christian just because I disputed the "Massacre of the Innocents"

So while far from being someone who denies Herods existence it does appear that some (well ONE anyway ) Christians seem to think that if we dispute the alleged massacre then we are also disputing Herod's existence

The context provided by Joephus of the state of mind of Herod is not specific about killing of those babies in that small town, but Herod's state of mind by this stage confirmed he was very murderous. What he was about to do at the time of his death to make sure he was mourned was kill a whole hippidrome of people so that the sadness over all those killed would be indistinguishable from the mourning over his death. I think that's the bigger news item than killing a few babies in a small town two years of age and under. What estimate do you think that number might have been?

What we see in retrospection sometimes is only through a narrow port and so it seems much more significant than the bigger picture.

I'm more interested in any inscriptions that give the length of his reign, certainly that would have been included, right? Do you know if the particulars of the find have been published or not yet?

LG47

Ben C Smith · 05-09-2007, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

While some people did doubt the existence of Pilate....

Who?

Ben.

Malachi151 · 05-09-2007, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Who?

Ben.

Don't know, I've just heard several times that prior to the finding of the inscription that "some scholars" doubted the existence of Pilate. This may well have been another Christian foil for all I know, but I've heard the claim several times.

BTW:

http://www.catholic.org/internationa...y.php?id=24029

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle2524437.ece

darstec · 05-09-2007, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

On XTalk, Jim West has made mention of a news story announcing the discovery of the tomb of Herod the great.

So all you skeptics who have doubted the existence of Herod the great can just suck eggs. Same eggs you sucked when it was discovered that Pilate existed. And the Hittites.

Ben.

[Tongue firmly in cheek, for those who may have somehow missed the subtlety of the winking smilie.]

An empty tomb yet they know it is his rather than another family member's or dignitary's?

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05-09-2007, 05:52 AM	#83
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	I think some have missed the tongue-in-cheek effect of my OP. Who has ever doubted the existence of Herod the great? (If somebody has, I would stand corrected, but I would feel ashamed for humanity to stand corrected on this one.) Ben.

05-09-2007, 05:55 AM	#84
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	It's just like the finding of the inscription about Pilate, and the earliest Christian Church in Israel, both of which Christians claimed as support for their Gospel, and both of which really undermine their story. While some people did doubt the existence of Pilate, really the information that we have regarding Pilate, mostly Philo's discussion of his rule, is evidence that supports the non-existence of Jesus. As for the early Christian church that was found in Israel, it's artwork was commissioned by a Roman military officer and Jesus is depicted as Pisces and called simply a god. As for Herod, the real existence of Herod and the time of his death is what allows us to conclude that the Gospels of Luke and Matthew are contradictory, and what we know about Herod also shows that the "Massacre of the Innocents" is unlikely at best. So, in reality, all of these things, Pilate, Herod, the early Christian evidence, all works against the Gospel stories, not in their favor. <edit>

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