spin

spin

Doug Shaver

Translation: Disagreement with me is prima facie evidence of a closed mind.

JoeWallack

JW:
Apparently Beyer failed to consider the possibility that non-English speaking countries might have libraries too. No wonder the rest of the world hates us.

It's always the same thing with these guys. They Doubt the Direct/Superior evidence and because they doubt it they throw it out and than they use the Indirect/Inferior evidence to support their conclusion.

Beyer lists the following reasons to date Herod the Great's death to 1 BCE (which I think is what Steven is looking for):

1) The Texts of Josephus that have "twenty-second".

JW - We've seen that Beyer's related study was significantly incomplete.

2) The full eclipse of 1 BCE.

JW - Beyer fails to mention that there was also a full eclipse in 5 BCE.

3) Coin evidence.

JW - Extant coins directly support 4 BCE. Beyer has to argue that because there are reasons to doubt the accuracy of the reign dates for some extant coins this is evidence that 1 BCE is supported by extant coins. Probably the most unreasonable of all his claims.

4) Coregency.

JW - Beyer fails to explicitly state what his conclusion or even point is here and my guess is this is where he doubts the direct evidence for the year of Herod the Great's death (how many years he reigned).

5) The Texts of Josephus that give the reign of Philip.

JW - The same issues as 1). Generally it's the Latin versions that have the "twenty-second" that Beyer wants to use but they are also the ones that vary as to the length of Philip's reign. This is one reason why textual critics tend to think "twenty-second" is just part of a Translation problem with the Latin (from Greek).

6) Church Father dating of Jesus' birth.

JW - Probably the funniest of Beyer's Assertians. He points out that Christians give direct dating for the year of Jesus' birth as the 43rd, 42nd, 41st 40th, 28th year of Augustus' reign and one other year that he forgets to mention. Than he uses indirect evidence to conclude that all either meant 2 BCE or their evidence can be ignored.



Joseph

"Remember Jerry, it's not a lie if you really believe it's true." - George Costanza

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

judge

Coins tell us Herod died in 4 BC? Can you elaborate?

Larsguy47

Regarding the eclipse, based upon my investigations of Biblically related astronomical texts, it seems advisable not to depend upon precise eclipse timing and to expand the range of times by up to 14 hours earlier for this period. The net effect of this would be not excluding any potential eclipses that might have been seen within that range. Case in point, the apparent eclipse in reference just 4 days after the Fast of the 10th of Tebet (Tebet 14) that would have occurred just 18 days before the death of Herod on Shebat 2, 1 AD.

My opinion is that Josephus, dealing with revisionism for the reign of Herod inserted the eclipse as a cryptic reference to the true dating which the correctly identified eclipse gives away. Josephus suggests a 3-year reduction in the rule of Herod by giving a double rulership, one 34 years from 37CE and the other 37 years from 40 BE. The standard test would be to presume one of the rulerships is covering for the revision, in this case longer historical ruler of 37 years beginning at the traditional official rulership in 37 BC. In that case Herod's death would be confirmed to have occurred on Shebat 2, 1 AD.

That presumption is compared to the gospel dating in connection with Jesus' age and birth on September 14, 2 BC, as well as the incidence of an eclipse shortly after the annual Jewish fast of Tebet 10. Herod killed children 2 years and under suggesting Jesus was between 1 and 2 years of age. Herod's progressed illness and mania is reflected in his rash decisions so the closer to his final demise on Shebat 2 provides the general timeframe for when the incident of killing the children would have occurred. If that was sometime after the fall and into the winter of 1 BC, then Jesus would have been just over a year old at the time. The Shebat 2, 1AD date thus agrees with the gospel dating for the time of Jesus' birth.

Interestingly, if this were the only revision, likely evoked to add a few extra years to the ruling Caesar, Flavius, it might mean Jerusalem fell in 73 AD rather than 70 AD, which for such an important event, would be more relevant to Jesus' death in 33 CE since that would be exactly 40 years afterward.

Finally, this is the only eclipse mentioned by Josephus and it doesn't appear that there was any reference to the 4 BCE eclipse used now to date Herod's death, which in no way is possible. The Fast and eclipse happen just a few days before Herod's death (22-18). The March 13/14 eclipse occuring on Adar 13/14 is close to 6 to 10 weeks after Herod's death (i.e. 10 weeks if there was an intercalary month this year). Also based upon my best reference to correcting the eclipse timing based upon the SK400 text (Strm. Kambyses 400), the 1 BC eclipse on Tebet 14 would have occurred around 3 a.m. and the 4 BCE eclipse would not have been seen at all in Jerusalem, underscoring there was no apparent attempt by Josephus to try even remotely cross-matching the two eclipses in connection with the revision of Herod's chronology. Herod's death, therefore, on Shebat 2, 1 AD would now seem to be a foregone conclusion at this point, IMHO.

Larsguy47

judge

Prax I think you are going to waiting a long time to get much comment on this.
The apologists seem to be able to deal with the evidence here, I'm not sure how those advocating a 4BCE death for Herod deal with it.
Hopefully Richard Carrier can correct his article to include all the evidence and put some references in.

Larsguy47

Josephus is a special case treatment for history since the Jews had to deal with their sacred Bible and maintain a presence in the ever changing history and chronology of the pagan world. Thus it depends on how you read Josephus what his history represents. If you read between the lines it gives you something different than a face value read, meant for the casusal reader.

In this particular case with the dating of Herod's death, the double dating of his reign, 37 years from 40 BC and 34 years from 37 BC would be a classic giveaway that Herod's rule was reduced by 3 three years and his original rulership was 37 years from 37 BC, giving you the first preference for an indirect alternative date for the death of Herod to Shebat 2, 1 AD. It is that reference that would be compared to the gospel-dated event related to the age of Jesus at the time he fled to Egypt. That dating checks since Jesus, born on Tishri 14, 2 BC (i.e. if he was circumcised on the 8th day of the Festival of Booths to fulfill that reference for this year) would have been just over a year old near the time Herod's illness was affecting his mental state and paranoia.

Once this match is made, the eclipse reference seems to be another secretive clue included in the history for insiders to correctly date Herod's death to Shebat 2, 1AD. Thus the only question at this point would be whether or not there was an eclipse on Tebet 14, just 4 days after the annual Jewish fast of Tebet 10 in 1 BC. The answer, of course, is yes.

What's sort of nice about this situation is that there no need to really introduce the gospel narrative here other than to note it is compatible with the "second best reference" for the true date of Herod's death provided by Josephus himself via the double-rulership reference combined with this eclipse event. Josephus also gives himself away by double-dating when Herod began to construct the temple, I believe alternatively in his 14th or 17th years (sorry for not checking for sure), but again, that 3-year "alternative" we apply at the slightest hint of a historical contradiction.

I guess if one is dead set on a direct read there's little choice but to date his death on Shebat 2, 3 BC, in which case you have zero eclipse compatibility. But the second best interpretative date from Josephus would be Shebat 2, 1 AD, which gets confirmed by the eclipse he mentions.

Larsguy47

Larsguy47

Interesting. But just for a reminder, Joseph was from the family of Judah and even if he did live in Galilee he seems to have been required to come back to Judah and register. So that would explain why he was connected with the taxation of Judah and why the there was no housing there.

Larsguy47

Larsguy47

From the discussion on "The Lunar eclipse of Josephus":

I don't quite understand the reference here for an "unknown fast day" near Tebet 9. That's because there are four well known annual Jewish fasts days. One in the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months. The fast in the tenth month occurs on Tebet 10 to commemorate the siege of Jerusalem.

This annual fast would have occurred 22 days before Herod's death the next month. My casual reading suggests that this is not apparent in general as part of this discussion, especially with a comment trying to link the fast of the seventh month in the incident with the rabbis, though dismissed as not consistent with Josephus' account. That association seems inexplicable with the closest annual fast to Herod's death on Shebat 2 was the annual Tebet 10 event anyway.

This can be looked up but here's a quote from Wikipedia as a general reference:

Thus as the logistically closest fast day to Herod's death that would be closely followed by an eclipse on the 14th of the month, this Tebet 10 annual fast would be the obvious reference. That being the case, the March 13/14 eclipse is totally out of the question as a reference here as a reference.

So the Megallith Ta'anith is not really recording such an "unknown fast day" on the 9th, but is likely a reference to the annual Tevet 10 fast. Of course, because of the way the Jews arrange their different concepts of the day, there is no real discrepancy for a reference to the 9th. That's because the Jewish day begins in the evening of the main celebration day. For instance, the day of Atonement is dated on the 10th of the 7th month, but it officially begins on the 9th, in the evening, which is when the sabbath day begins. The Jews had the official tradition of changing the calendar DATE at midnight, so this split the technical Jewish day beginning and ending at sunset between two calendar dates. Thus when the Bible is being more specific for the actual sabbath day, it begins that day on the previous day in the evening. (Compare Lev. 23:26 and 27).

Considering the cultural "blurr" of the days, a reference to the 9th would be a presumptive reference to the Tebet 10 event that technically began on the 9th, in the evening.

Larsguy47

squiz

I am trying to come to grips with the arguments that you are making here regarding the chronology of Herods death. I am having some trouble understanding your arguments, as they are peppered with references to Jewish dating systems and feast days that I am not up to speed on. If you have a reference to the Jewish calendar and how it might have shifted over the millennia then I would appreciate it.

To recap, the dates for lunar eclipses in the timeframe concerned are given in this list:

http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclips...0099-0000.html

5BC 23 Mar 18:20 UTC
5BC 15 Sep 20:10 UTC
4BC 13 Mar 00:40 UTC (Partial)
4BC 05 Sep 11:06 UTC (Partial)
1BC 09 Jan 23:08 UTC
1BC 05 Jul 08:37 UTC

My take on Josephus Ant.17-6:4 is that there was a fast, then Herod sacked the High Priest and killed another guy called Matthias on the day before there was a lunar eclipse. Herod then fell sick and then after various attempts at healing (involving some travelling) he died. This was before the passover Ant.17-9:3.

According to Jewish_calendar, the Jewish Month in the Second Temple era began at the first cresent moon.
Yom Kippur occurs on the 10th of Tishrei. According to this link that would have been on the 11th or 12th of September in 5BC. The eclipse was on the 15th of September. Passover was approx. 6 months later. What is wrong with this timetable? Everything seems to fit.

The only argument that I can find against this date is that someone thinks that there is no way that Herod would have executed anyone prominent on a feast day when Jerusalem was full of pilgrims as this would be too dangerous. This seems to be a rather tenuous arguement and not strong enough to simply throw the date out wholesale, as these people proceed to do. It is not to hard to think of one other example of a prominent person who is supposed to have been executed immediately before another festival day when Jerusalem was full of pilgrims. I cannot understand why this argument is applied to Herod's Matthias, but not to Jesus.