Ben C Smith

Is it not obvious that Papias wrote what he wrote because it was what his predecessors held? He is quoting somebody else, lest we forget.

With that, three quarters of the books from antiquity fall off the shelf.

Again, Papias is quoting somebody.

Yes, Peter would have been the logical choice. Which makes one wonder why Papias and his source settled on Mark....

Indeed! I suggest that is good intrinsic evidence for the credibility of Papias and his elder on this point.

Already taken? You think the gospel of Peter predated Papias? Always possible, of course, but it would seem to require more of the evidence than we currently possess.

Ben.

God Fearing Atheist

Ben,

What are your thoughts on the idea that attributing it to Mark (via Peter) was used to deflect criticisms of the gospel's order (while still retaining the air of apostolic authority it gets from Peter's name)?

Diogenes the Cynic

The issue is not the legitimacy of Papias' claim, per se, but whether it should be assumed that he was talking about the Canonicals or something else.
You're mistating or misunderstanding what is meant by intenal/external evidence for "Mark." The point here is that there is no good internal or external evidence for identifying Canonical Mark as being equivalent to Papias' Mark.
For the sake of argument, I am willing to stipulate that we can assume the reliability of Papias' per se claims. To wit -- somebody named Mark recorded the memoirs of Peter, and an apostle named Matthew compiled a collection of sayings in Hebrew. Now by what process do you conclude that those works can be positively identified as Canonical Mark and Matthew?

Iasion

Greetings,

Because we would reasonably expect the names to be given (albeit not necessarily on every occasion.) Instead we have NO mention in a large number of cases.


Some of these mentions explicity NAME the books : Justin says they are known as the "memoirs of the apostles" and he also says they are called "Gospels" - that is a fairly explicit naming of the books. If he had titled books before him, it can reasonably be expected he would have said they were called the "Gospel of Mark" etc.

Aristides also names the book - "the Gospel, as it is called" - here he mentions ONE Gospel which he explicitly says is called "the Gospel". Again, if he knew of an author's name, we can reasonably expect he would have given it.


We are all aware here of the issues surrounding the "argument from silence" - the issues are :
* how likely it is that a name would be mentioned - quite likely in this case.
* how many silences there are - quite a large number in this case.


Iasion

Iasion

Greetings,

I don't agree - this seems like a fairly good argument from silence to me, because :
* it can reasonably be expected a name would be given if known
* it's a fairly large number of silences
* some references fairly explicitly name the books - "the Gospel as it is called" for instance - yet give no author's names.


Iasion

Roger Pearse

Did you not see at least two posts in this thread which deal with this? These statements can only be made by ignoring what the passage in Eusebius, where the words of Papias are quoted, actually says. It also requires us to ignore that Eusebius had the passage before him and tells us what it is about when in context. Then having ignored these points, the argument is that the few words quoted do not include the same statement as E's summary.

I don't think that this is a good way to deal with data. Surely the same process of selection and omission could make anyone say anything?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Iasion

Greetings,

How many complete MSS with extant titles are from before 185CE or so?
None.

How many fathers do so before 185CE or so?
Just one controversial case, which describes only 2 Gospels, DIFFERENT to ours, and gives a different attribution for one of them.


Papias describes only two Gospels, which are not quite like ours now, and he gives a different name for one - "the memoirs of Peter". And, as noted below - G.John was attributed to Cerinthus by one father. That's two cases of different attributions.

Justin Martyr does NOT give author's names at all.

Irenaeus is the first to do so - in 185CE - it appears he named them himself.


Iasion

Iasion

Greetings,

For your information, here is a fairly complete list of mentions of the word Gospel in the first 2 centuries:


Paul, 50-60CE, 60+ references
e.g. 1 Corinthians : 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel--not in wisdom of words, so that the cross of Christ wouldn't be made void.


1 Clement, 90-100CE, 2 references
Ch. 42 The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ.
...
Ch. 47 Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached?


1 Peter, 80-110CE, 3 references :
1:12 To them it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.
...
4:6 For to this end was the Gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit.
...
4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God. If it begins first with us, what will happen to those who don't obey the Gospel of God?


Revelation, 90-95CE, 1 reference :
14:6 I saw an angel flying in mid heaven, having an eternal Gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people.


The Sophia of Jesus Christ, c.100CE?, 2 refereneces :
Then Bartholomew said to him: "How (is it that) <he> was designated in the Gospel 'Man' and 'Son of Man'? To which of them, then, is this Son related?"
...
These are the things the blessed Savior said, and he disappeared from them. Then all the disciples were in great, ineffable joy in the spirit from that day on. And his disciples began to preach the Gospel of God, the eternal, imperishable Spirit.


1 Timothy, 100-150CE, 1 reference :
1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully, 1:9 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, ... and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine; 1:11 according to the Gospel of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.


2 Timothy, 100-150CE, 3 references :
1:8 Therefore don't be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner; but endure hardship for the Gospel according to the power of God,
...
1:10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel.

2:8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, of the seed of David, according to my Gospel, 2:9 in which I suffer hardship to the point of chains as a criminal. But God's word isn't chained.


Acts, 80-130, 7 references :
e.g. 8:25 They therefore, when they had testified and spoken the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the Gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.


Barnabas, 80-120CE, 3 references :
But when He chose His own apostles who where to preach His Gospel, [He did so from among those] who were sinners above all sin, that He might show He came "not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
...
To these He gave authority to preach the Gospel, being twelve in number, corresponding to the twelve tribes of Israel.
...
And again, the prophet saith, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me; because He hath anointed me to preach the Gospel to the humble: He hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to proclaim deliverance to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind; to announce the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of recompense; to comfort all that mourn."


The Didache, 50-120CE, 4 references :
Ch. 8 Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever.
...
Ch. 11 But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there's a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet.
...
Ch.15 Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in
the Gospel of our Lord.


The Preaching of Peter, 100-150CE, 1 reference :
I chose out you twelve, judging you to be disciples worthy of me, whom the Lord willed, and thinking you faithful apostles; sending you unto the world to preach the Gospel to men throughout the world,


2 Clement, 130-160CE, 1 reference :
For the Lord saith in the Gospel, "If ye have not kept that which was small, who will commit to you the great? For I say unto you, that he that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in much."


The Apocalypse of Peter, c. 200CE, 1 reference :
Declare unto us what are the signs of thy coming and of the end of the world, that we may perceive and mark the time of thy coming and instruct them that come after us, unto whom we preach the word of thy Gospel, and whom we set over (in) thy church, that they when they hear it may take heed to themselves and mark the time of thy coming.


The Epistle of the Apostles, 140-150CE , 1 reference :
1 The book which Jesus Christ revealed unto his disciples: and how that Jesus Christ revealed the book for the company (college) of the apostles, the disciples of Jesus Christ, even the book which is for all men. Simon and Cerinthus, the false apostles, concerning whom it is written that no man shall cleave unto them, for there is in them deceit wherewith they bring men to destruction. (The book hath been written) that ye may be not flinch nor be troubled, and depart not from the word of the Gospel which ye have heard. Like as we heard it, we keep it in remembrance and have written it for the whole world.


The Gospel of Mary, 120-180CE, 3 references :
4:37 Go then and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom.
...
5:1 But they were grieved. They wept greatly, saying, How shall we go to the Gentiles and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of the Son of Man? If they did not spare Him, how will they spare us?
...
9:9 That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the Gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.


Apology of Aristides, 138-161CE, 1 reference :
And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the Gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it.


Ignatius to Eph,, 130-160CE, 1 reference :
Ch. 12 : Ye are initiated into the mysteries of the Gospel with Paul, the holy, the martyred, the deservedly most happy, at whose feet may I be found, when I shall attain to God; who in all his Epistles makes mention of you in Christ Jesus.

Ignatius to Phil., 130-160CE, 6 references :
Ch. 5 : But your prayer to God shall make me perfect, that I may attain to that portion which through mercy has been allotted me, while I flee to the Gospel as to the flesh of Jesus, and to the apostles as to the presbytery of the Church. And let us also love the prophets, because they too have proclaimed the Gospel, and placed their hope in Him, and waited for Him; in whom also believing, they were saved, through union to Jesus Christ, being holy men, worthy of love and admiration, having had witness borne to them by Jesus Christ, and being reckoned along with in the Gospel of the common hope.
...
Ch.8 : When I heard some saying, If I do not find it in the ancient Scriptures, I will not believe the Gospel; on my saying to them, It is written, they answered me, That remains to be proved. But to me Jesus Christ is in the place of all that is ancient: His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity;
...
Ch. 9 : But the Gospel possesses something transcendent [above the former dispensation], viz., the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, His passion and resurrection. For the beloved prophets announced Him, but the Gospel is the perfection of immortality. All these things are good together, if ye believe in love.

Ignatius to Smyr., 130-160CE, 2 references :
Ch. 5 : Some ignorantly deny Him, or rather have been denied by Him, being the advocates of death rather than of the truth. These persons neither have the prophets persuaded, nor the law of Moses, nor the Gospel even to this day, nor the sufferings we have individually endured.
...
Ch. 7 : It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons,
and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.


Polycarp to the Philippians, 110-140CE, 1 reference :
Let us then serve Him in fear, and with all reverence, even as He Himself has commanded us, and as the apostles who preached the Gospel unto us, and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of the Lord [have alike taught us].


Justin Martyr's 1st Apology, 150-160CE, 1 reference :
Ch. 66 : For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.


Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho, 150-160CE, 3 references :
Ch. 10 : "This is what we are amazed at," said Trypho, "but those things about which the multitude speak are not worthy of belief; for they are most repugnant to human nature. Moreover, I am aware that your precepts in the so-called Gospel are so wonderful and so great, that I suspect no one can keep them; for I have carefully read them."
...
Ch. 12 : The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh.
...
Ch. 100 : For I have showed already that Christ is called both Jacob and Israel; and I have proved that it is not in the blessing of Joseph and Judah alone that what relates to Him was proclaimed mysteriously, but also in the Gospel it is written that He said: 'All things are delivered unto me by My Father;' and, 'No man knoweth the Father but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and they to whom the Son will reveal Him.'


Justin Martyr's On The Resurrection, 150-160CE, 1 reference :
Ch. 10 : Considering, therefore, even such arguments as are suited to this world, and finding that, even according to them, it is not impossible that the flesh be regenerated; and seeing that, besides all these proofs, the Saviour in the whole Gospel shows that there is salvation for the flesh,


The Martyrdom of Polycarp, 150-160CE, 4 references :
For almost all the events that happened previously [to this one], took place that the Lord might show us from above a martyrdom becoming the Gospel.
...
Wherefore, brethren, we do not commend those who give themselves up [to suffering], seeing the Gospel does not teach so to do.
...
He was not merely an illustrious teacher, but also a pre-eminent martyr, whose martyrdom all desire to imitate, as having been altogether consistent with the Gospel of Christ.
...
We wish you, brethren, all happiness, while you walk according to the doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ;


Fragments from Theodotus, 150-180CE, 2 references :
He cited as a proof to all, how, when the angels give glad tidings to the barren, they introduce souls before conception. And in the Gospel "the babe leapt" as a living thing.


Anti-Montanist (from Eusebius H.E.), 193CE, 2 references :
Eusebius H.E. Ch. 16:2 - A certain one of these, in the beginning of his work against them, first intimates that he had contended with them in oral controversies. He commences his work in this manner:
"Having for a very long and sufficient time, O beloved Avircius Marcellus, been urged by you to write a treatise against the heresy of those who are called after Miltiades, I have hesitated till the present time, not through lack of ability to refute the falsehood or bear testimony for the truth, but from fear and apprehension that I might seem to some to be making additions to the doctrines or precepts of the Gospel of the New Testament, which it is impossible for one who has chosen to live according to the Gospel, either to increase or to diminish."


The Acts of Paul, 150-200CE, 2 references :
40 But Thecla yearned after Paul and sought him, sending about in all places; and it was told her that he was at Myra. And she took young men and maids, and girded herself, and sewed her mantle into a cloak after the fashion of a man, and departed into Myra, and found Paul speaking the word of God, and went to him. But he when he saw her and the people that were with her was amazed, thinking in himself: Hath some other temptation come upon her? But she perceived it, and said to him: I have received the washing, 0 Paul; for he that hath worked together with thee in the Gospel hath worked with me also unto my baptizing.
...
34 If, then, ye receive any other doctrine, GOD SHALL BE WITNESS AGAINST YOU; AND let no man trouble me, 35 for I bear these bonds that I may win Christ, and I therefore bear his marks in my body that I may attain unto the resurrection of the dead. And whoso receiveth (abideth in) the rule which he hath received by the blessed prophets and the holy Gospel, shall receive a recompense from the Lord,


The Acts of Peter and Paul, 150-200CE, 1 reference :
And having gone forth from Baias, they went to Gaitas, and there he taught tim word of God. And he stayed there three days in the house of Erasmus, whom Peter sent from Rome to teach the Gospel of God.


The Acts of Peter, 150-200CE, 1 reference :
And Peter entered into the dining-hall and saw that the Gospel was being read, and he rolled up the book and said: Ye men that believe and hope in Christ, learn in what manner the holy Scripture of our Lord ought to be declared: whereof we by his grace wrote that which we could receive, though yet it appear unto you feeble, yet according to our power, even that which can be endured to be borne by (or instilled into) human flesh.


The Muratorian Canon, 170-200CE, 3 references :
The third book of the Gospel is that according to Luke.
...
The fourth book of the Gospel is that of John's, one of the disciples.
...
And so to the faith of believers there is no discord even although different selections are given from the facts in the individual books of the Gospels.


The Treatise on the Resurrection, 170-200CE, 1 reference :
What, then, is the resurrection? It is always the disclosure of those who have risen. For if you remember reading in the Gospel that Elijah appeared and Moses with him, do not think the resurrection is an illusion.


Claudius Apollinaris Fragments, 160-180CE, 1 reference :
There are, then, some who through ignorance raise disputes about these things (though their conduct is pardonable: for ignorance is no subject for blame-it rather needs further instruction), and say that on the fourteenth day the Lord ate the lamb with the disciples, and that on the great day of the feast of unleavened bread He Himself suffered; and they quote Matthew as speaking in accordance with their view. Wherefore their opinion is contrary to the law, and the Gospels seem to be at variance with them.


Hegesippus Fragments, c. 170CE, 1 reference :
With show of reason could it be said that Symeon was one of those who actually saw and heard the Lord, on the ground of his great age, and also because the Scripture of the Gospels makes mention of Mary the daughter of Clopas, who, as our narrative has shown already, was his father.


Melito of Sardis, c. 170CE, 3 references :
The finger of the Lord-the Holy Spirit, by whose operation the tables of the law in Exodus are said to have been written; and in the Gospel: "If I by the finger of God cast out demons" The fingers of the Lord-The lawgiver Moses, or the prophets.
...
As in Habakkuk: "He good and measured the earth;and in the Gospel: "Jesus stood, and bade him be called" that is, the blind man.
...
The knowledge of the Lord-that which makes men to know Him. To Abraham He says: "Now I know that thou fearest the Lord; "that is, I have made thee to know. The ignorance of God is His disapproval. In the Gospel: "I know you not."


Polycrates of Ephesus Fragments, c.190CE, 1 reference :
These all kept the passover on the fourteenth. day of the month, in accordance with the Gospel, without ever deviating from it, but keeping to the rule of faith.


Pseudo Sybillines Book I, c.200CE?, 1 reference :
460 Unto the light, and show his form to men
And teach all things, ascending in the clouds
Unto the house of heaven shall he go
Leaving the world a Gospel convenant.
And in his name shall blossom a new shoot


Theophilus to Autolycus, c.180CE, 4 references :
Ch. 12 : Moreover, concerning the righteousness which the law enjoined, confirmatory utterances are found both with the prophets and in the Gospels, because they all spoke inspired by one Spirit of God.
...
And the voice of the Gospel teaches still more urgently concerning chastity, saying: "Whosoever looketh on a woman who is not his own wife, to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
...
And the Gospel says: "Love your enemies, and pray for them that despitefully use you. For if ye love them who love you, what reward have ye? This do also the robbers and the publicans."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The change from Gospel meaning the Christian message, to Gospel meaning a specific type of book about Jesus, seems to have taken place sometime mid 2nd century - see the Epistle of the Apostles, or Aristides, or Justin. Or perhaps earlier considering Papias or the Didakhe.


Iasion

jakejonesiv

OK, I'll bite. What are the names of the twelve apostles? And which gospel did each of them write, if any?

According to Justin, how many gospels were there?
One?
Two?
Three?
Four?
Five?

:huh:
Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

The first time we hear that there are four gospels is from Irenaeus, and the reasoning put forth there is idiotic.
In addition, we should note that each of the four alleged gospels was defined against gospels used by heretics. 3.11.7.

Matthew - Ebionites
Luke - Marcion
Mark - Separationists or Adoptionists
John - Valentinus

Did the gospels of the heretics come first?

Jake Jones IV