Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ken Brown · 03-12-2013, 04:32 AM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi aa5874, why don't you do a little free thought and reasoning with me? Prior to Yeshua's suffering, death, burial, and 3rd day resurrection, His disciples were like traditional christianity and most who post here...totally in the dark with respect to what Yeshua predicted. Here are a few of the verses that Yeshua openly stated to His disciples about His suffering, death, burial, and 3rd day resurrection. His disciples were in the dark, and didn't understand what Yeshua was saying to them, for these things were "hid" from them, just like it is hidden from most who read what He predicted:

(Mt 16:21) From that time forth began Yeshua to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

(Mk 8:31) And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mk 9:31 - 9:32

(31) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. (32) But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Mk 10:32 - 10:34

(32) And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Yeshua went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, (33) [Saying], Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: (34) And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Lk 9:44 - 9:45

(44) Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. (45) But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Lk 18:31 - 18:34

(31) Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (33) And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Lk 24:6 - 24:8

(6) He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, (7) Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. (8) And they remembered his words,

aa5874, why do you think rational thinking people could not fathom what Yeshua was predicting? KB

The story of Jesus was fundamentally fabricated from the words of the Prophets and there is no indication or evidence that actual rational people heard Jesus or that Jesus of Nazareth did exist.

All we have are stories, myth fables, of a character the Son of God who was not supposed to be understood at all or who he was UNTIL the Fall of the Jewish Temple and the calamities of the Jews.

John 12

Now Examine Isaiah 6.

ISAIAH 6

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8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying , Whom shall I send , and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9 And he said , Go , and tell this people, Hear ye indeed , but understand not; and see ye indeed , but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat , and make their ears heavy , and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert , and be healed .

11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered , Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant , and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate ...

Hi aa5874, maybe you do not read very carefully, but AFTER His resurrection He did OPEN to His disciples concerning what was written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets about His ordeal. You can tell someone something many, many times, but until they actually see it happen and then have it explained showing where it was foretold, then the light bulb can go on, and your heart can burn within you:

(Lk 24:32) And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

You believe Yeshua was a non-historical figure of a cult's imagination, yet look at all the times this supposedly non-historical figure predicted what would happen to Him? Let me give you a possible way to cure your unbelief.

Yeshua was challenged by the religious authorities of His day to give them a "sign." These religious authorities were somewhat like you, very skeptical, and sought after a sign that would prove Yeshua was a Prophet, and the Messiah. The only sign He said he would give was the sign of the Prophet Jonah...for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Did that sign come true? Can it be convincingly shown that Yeshua was in the heart of the earth (the tomb) for three days and three nights? Would that make a difference to you aa if it could? KB P.S. Now remember, the supposedly non-historical Yeshua asked the question, "Are there not twelve hours in the day (John 11:9)?

aa5874 · 03-12-2013, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi aa5874, maybe you do not read very carefully, but AFTER His resurrection He did OPEN to His disciples concerning what was written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets about His ordeal....

This is the 21st century.

I cannot accept the Resurrection of Jesus as an historical fact. I consider the Resurrection as a Fable-Mythology.

Soon, you will be asking me to accept Talking Clouds, Tranfigurations and Water Walking as historical accounts.

Please, please, please. I do accept demonstrable fiction as history.

The Entire NT accounts of Jesus is demonstratable fiction.

You can just go and CURSE a Fig Tree a TRILLION times and tell me the results if you survive.

Horatio Parker · 03-12-2013, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

You believe Yeshua was a non-historical figure of a cult's imagination, yet look at all the times this supposedly non-historical figure predicted what would happen to Him? Let me give you a possible way to cure your unbelief.

Yeshua was challenged by the religious authorities of His day to give them a "sign." These religious authorities were somewhat like you, very skeptical, and sought after a sign that would prove Yeshua was a Prophet, and the Messiah. The only sign He said he would give was the sign of the Prophet Jonah...for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the huge fish, so the Son of Man would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Did that sign come true? Can it be convincingly shown that Yeshua was in the heart of the earth (the tomb) for three days and three nights? Would that make a difference to you aa if it could? KB P.S. Now remember, the supposedly non-historical Yeshua asked the question, "Are there not twelve hours in the day (John 11:9)?

Circular; self-referential. Because predictions from one story are said to be fulfilled in another doesn't make either of them historical.

It's a common confusion to externalize belief; consider geopolitics.

If you're spiritually motivated, my advice is to look inward and forget apologetics. Apologetics is a waste of spiritual energy.

Toto · 03-12-2013, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

... Did that sign come true? Can it be convincingly shown that Yeshua was in the heart of the earth (the tomb) for three days and three nights?

No it can't. There is no reliable evidence for any event connected with this.

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P.S. Now remember, the supposedly non-historical Yeshua asked the question, "Are there not twelve hours in the day (John 11:9)?

What is this supposed to mean?

Jayrok · 03-12-2013, 01:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Ken Brown

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Originally Posted by Jayrok

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Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi mountainman, Moses wrote about the Gospel in the Constitution or the Foundation of the Torah. The suffering, death, burial (and even a stone being rolled over the entrance to the tomb), and the third day resurrection was all written about in THE Ordinance of the Torah. KB

Can you be more specific?

Luke 24:45-46 -- Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day...

Where in the OT is this statement written?

Hi Jayrok, yes, Luke 24 is very important in revealing that what Moses wrote has to be "opened" to really see what is written. John also mentions in John 20:9 about "The Scripture" that demands He rise from the dead. Moses wrote that Scripture, and very few even want to look at what Moses wrote.

The Ordinance of the Torah deals with separating a sinner from their sin (and not substitutionally either), and cleansing them from the defilement of death. The Pentateuch & Haftorahs (Hertz) state that this Ordinance is the most mysterious rite in Scripture. It is stated that this rites aim was to purify the defiled, and yet it defiled all those who were in any way connected with the preparation of the ashes and water of purification. It purifies the impure, and at the same time renders impure the pure! So inscrutable was its nature--they said--that even King Solomon in his wisdom despaired of learning the secret meaning of the ritual.

So, look at the Ordinance of the Torah, there is where you will find the suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection. You will also find that AFTER someone is sprinkled with the ashes (which had living water added to them in the vessel), they were required to be baptized. It's not a coincidence that the whole of the Gospel is veiled within this mysterious ritual (The Foundation of the Torah). KB

The red heifer of Numbers 19 = the messiah (i.e. Jesus)? Wow, that is quite a stretch, KB. That heifer didn't suffer any more than any other animal used for sacrifice and it wasn't resurrected on the 3rd, 5th, or 7th day, or ever.

Why does it have to be "hidden" in the Torah? Jesus said it was written in the scriptures that the messiah (not some red cow) will suffer, die and rise again in 3 days. Where is this written?

Jayrok · 03-12-2013, 01:40 PM

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Originally Posted by spin

Ken, you've just reminded me of what Charlie Manson did with Beatles lyrics. (Manson had no window into the minds of Lennon and McCartney, but presumed to find "hidden" meaning in the lyrics and incidentally used them to send silly acolytes out to murder people.)

Good posting and a nice summary of what's going on here.

Ken Brown · 03-13-2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

... Did that sign come true? Can it be convincingly shown that Yeshua was in the heart of the earth (the tomb) for three days and three nights?

No it can't. There is no reliable evidence for any event connected with this.

Quote:

P.S. Now remember, the supposedly non-historical Yeshua asked the question, "Are there not twelve hours in the day (John 11:9)?

What is this supposed to mean?

Hi Toto, what can be shown convincingly is that if you carefully look at the Scriptures and have a mind that is not controlled by tradition, you can "see" that Yeshua was put to death on a Wednesday, and not a Friday. Those who believe He died on Friday are deceived, confused, and under a strong delusion, for with a Friday death and burial, at best you can count 2 nights and 1 day. Thus the SIGN that Yeshua gave for three days and three nights, is meaningless and in no way could you possibly say His SIGN came true. This is just one of the many confused beliefs held by traditional christianity because they have no free and rational thought.

The point about twelve hours in the day. Elsewhere, Yeshua stated that He has to work while it is "day" because, "The night cometh when no man can work"-(John 9:4). So it is obvious that when Yeshua asked, "Are there not twelve hours in the day, you should be able to see that the twelve hours did not include the twelve hours for the night. Each day/night cycle had twenty four hours, and three days and three nights would be seventy two hours. So if you rationally look at what Yeshua said, there is no logical way for Him to fulfill His SIGN by being placed in the tomb at sunset on Friday and rising at sunrise on Sunday.

But here is what you should focus on Toto. How could billions of people be deceived to believe in "Good Friday," when it should have been "Abominable Wednesday?" KB

Sheshbazzar · 03-13-2013, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

The point about twelve hours in the day. Elsewhere, Yeshua stated that He has to work while it is "day" because, "The night cometh when no man can work"-(John 9:4). So it is obvious that when Yeshua asked, "Are there not twelve hours in the day, you should be able to see that the twelve hours did not include the twelve hours for the night. Each day/night cycle had twenty four hours, and three days and three nights would be seventy two hours. So if you rationally look at what Yeshua said, there is no logical way for Him to fulfill His SIGN by being placed in the tomb at sunset on Friday and rising at sunrise on Sunday.

What hour in the year was that 'third hour'? 'the sixth hour'? 'the ninth hour'?

At what hour in the year would have the resurrection taken place ?

What hour in the year was the midnight hour?

On what day of the week must the first hour of that year have began ?

Go figure. Get understanding with certainty, but see to it that you DO NOT reveal the answers to these things to anyone.

ששבצר העברי

Ken Brown · 03-13-2013, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

The point about twelve hours in the day. Elsewhere, Yeshua stated that He has to work while it is "day" because, "The night cometh when no man can work"-(John 9:4). So it is obvious that when Yeshua asked, "Are there not twelve hours in the day, you should be able to see that the twelve hours did not include the twelve hours for the night. Each day/night cycle had twenty four hours, and three days and three nights would be seventy two hours. So if you rationally look at what Yeshua said, there is no logical way for Him to fulfill His SIGN by being placed in the tomb at sunset on Friday and rising at sunrise on Sunday.

What hour in the year was that 'third hour'? 'the sixth hour'? 'the ninth hour'?

At what hour in the year would have the resurrection taken place ?

What hour in the year was the midnight hour?

On what day of the week must the first hour of that year have began ?

Go figure. Get understanding with certainty, but see to it that you DO NOT reveal the answers to these things to anyone.

ששבצר העברי

Hi Sheshbazzar, you really shouldn't drink when you post. It's unbecoming. KB

Sheshbazzar · 03-13-2013, 07:43 PM

By the content of your post I thought you might be able to appreciate the help. Apparently I was wrong. The questions do have determinable and exacting answers.
Ones which could unlock your comprehension of many other Scriptural matters.
Did you think these things were random events, and the times given were simply arbitrary and not according to a precise pattern and schedule?
Whatever there is of The Bible that you would rather remain in ignorance of, that is your loss.

ששבצר העברי

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03-13-2013, 07:43 PM	#70
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	By the content of your post I thought you might be able to appreciate the help. Apparently I was wrong. The questions do have determinable and exacting answers. Ones which could unlock your comprehension of many other Scriptural matters. Did you think these things were random events, and the times given were simply arbitrary and not according to a precise pattern and schedule? Whatever there is of The Bible that you would rather remain in ignorance of, that is your loss. ששבצר העברי

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