Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dark Virtue · 04-25-2006, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Okay, are you willing to claim that the billions of followers and those artists, philosophers, politicians, musicians, etc, who were inspired by this lunatic are all insane as well? If not insane at least hoodwinked by the greatest hoax in history? I don't find this argument to be particularly sane. We disagree, that's fine, just make sure the disagreement is clear. You are posing an extremely fringy belief that very few non-believers take seriously.

Just wondering...is it the belief of Christians that every nonChristian theist has been hoodwinked into following a "false" god?

sunspark · 04-25-2006, 02:20 PM

@Dark Virtue: Depends upon the Christian. For many, yes. For just as many others they'd say they're just rebelling against the true God like the rest of the heathens.

Nuwanda · 04-25-2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

Just wondering...is it the belief of Christians that every nonChristian theist has been hoodwinked into following a "false" god?

That's a fair question. I'll speak for myself: "hoodwinked," as I meant it, would be someone who followed a religion that was deliberately set up as a hoax, as would the case be for Christianity if Jesus' disciples knew He was insane. That's hoodwinking. Other religions can be founded with completely different motives that do not include intentionally preaching a falsehood. So yes, you can follow a false god and not be accused of being "hoodwinked."

As a believer that uses the Bible as God's written word, I am not at liberty to decide which of Christ's words I want to follow and which I will throw out. If He said that He is the way, the truth, and the light, and that no man comes to the Father except through Him then any other route is a false path.

Gamera · 04-25-2006, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah

More problems for you here. First of all you can't prove Paul was inspired.

!!!! So you can "prove" scripture is inspired !!!. Well, there goes the need for faith.

Really, noah, your irrational idolatry toward the law is leading you to one absurdity to the next.

Gamera · 04-25-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah

Nowhere does JC/Yahweh say you are saved by faith in Jesus as human blood sacrifice. It contradicts Jesus/Yahweh's Laws (Ezek 18:20-22).
How do perfect and eternal Laws become optional? If they're perfect, how do they become a curse or need to be circumvented?

I'll keep quoting this, and you go ahead and keep ignoring it.

Matthew 26:28 - for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 - To him all the prophets bear witness that every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Acts 13:38 - Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Hebrews 9: - And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Gamera · 04-25-2006, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah

Paul's wrong. You and Paul need to read Ezekiel 18:20-22, Psalm 119:144, Psalm 119:152-160, Mathew 5:17-20 and Rev.22:14.
.

Both Paul and I have read these verses, and none of them assert that the Law can save anybody. All the Law does is show us the need for a savior, since nobody, including you, keeps the law.

Gamera · 04-25-2006, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah

It doesn't. It saves you. See Psalm 119
He doesn't. Grace is a purely Paulinian contrivance. It is unsupported by scripture
No one can die for another's sins Deut. 24:16

You need to argue with John about that, not me or Paul:

John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Gamera · 04-25-2006, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah

exposes Paul for the renegade that he truly is. No amount of Christian rationalization can minimize the damage to Paul's cherished doctrine of faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice that these verses do. JC says obey the commandments forever. Then he says his word lasts forever. He's your God. Your move.

Yahweh/Jesus warns time and again against those who violate their Laws or teach others to break it. Isa 29:13
Psa 50:16-17

So according to you, only Jews can be saved, and God wrote off all nonJews because he didn't give them the law.

Sorry, that's not my God. This is my God:

Psalms 103:8 - The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.

Gamera · 04-25-2006, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah

Jesus/Yahweh's Laws are eternal and perfect. These verses warn against violating or altering or diminishing God's Laws.
Why would Jesus/Yahweh become the very thing they warned against?

So Jesus was lying, according to you, when he said:

Matthew 19:8 - He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

Mark 10:5 - But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.

You're on very shakey ground, noah.

Gamera · 04-25-2006, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

The following verses by Jesus (which I don't think even the Jesus Seminar people challenge) indicate that Jesus understood that his death would overturn the Law.

Matthew 5:22 21 "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire. 23

[the teaching is, bad intent results in judgment even if you follow the law; thus it is intent that counts, not following rules -- and by intent Jesus means love]

Matthew 22: 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." 41

[there is no Law to love God and your neighbor -- this is outside the law, and in fact isn't about behavior but about a feeling, which you cannot legislate. You can't say, "Love or you violate the law." So the "commandment" to love, is in fact an anti-commandment, an appeal to a condition, which is achieved only through faith and the acceptance of God's love]
]

noah keeps ignoring these verses, so I'll keep bumping them and shaming him to a response.

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04-25-2006, 02:20 PM	#52
sunspark Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 260	@Dark Virtue: Depends upon the Christian. For many, yes. For just as many others they'd say they're just rebelling against the true God like the rest of the heathens.

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