Giant Rabbit

Yeah - it's an idea I despise. Actually the Islamic teaching is probably more lenient than the Christian one as some interpret a verse of the Quran to mean that Christians and Jews will go to heaven if they practice their faith but this is not a majority view and the verse seems to contradict others which damns everyone else apart from Muslims It's such an arrogant teaching. It assumes that everyone knows 'the truth' but wont accept it out of arrogance or unwilllingness to submit their will (Most muslims believe this).

God is meant ot be infinitely merciful and infinitely just. Maybe he just has a warped view of justice :huh:

Id like to be positive and think that God will be someone like a father as Christians preach and hell would not be some torture-fairground and it would not be for people who dont believe the 'right' things but for people who do bad.

Plognark

Hehehe....this is a rather common mindset among the "true believer" types (regardless of religious denomination) i've met. It's fascinating and infuriating at the same time.

I guess it all boils down to what a person believes to be 'bad'. Some may believe that one the worst thing is blasphemy, and should be punished for all eternity in hell. Some believe that murder is a heinous act and should be punished in hell.

I suppose I find it odd that very religious individuals can cry out about objective morality, about morality handed to man from god, and yet it winds up boiling down to mankind's subjective interpretation of those texts. It seems like a bit of a gamble to think that any one person has the "corret" interpretation.

Spookie Here

Giant Rabbit:
Some christians believe their religion is of "the truth" and most devout catholics cannot accept any other doctrine, even those of other christians.

Jedi Mind Trick

Yeah, Many christian sects won't even make room in heaven for other christians let alone the unbelievers.

Jedi Mind Trick

You know Giant Rabbit, I have to hand it to ya, I wont face anything but very minor consequences, if any, for unorthodox ideas I might entertain or profess but you could, as you say, loose your life.

I know I don’t know you but you seem a good person from your posts and for what its worth, I hope you will be safe from harm.

Giant Rabbit

If I am stil a Muslm then I guess Im a modernist. Where the Muslims differ from Christians is in the Holy Scripture; Christians critically analyse the Bible but Muslims think the Quran is the word of God and so cannot be false at all. As you asked the question 'Are you a modernist?' I actually started reading more articles by modern Muslims. It sounds great but again the scripture isnt exactly fully behind them. Id like to think though that they embody the underlying ideals of the religion and it is always attractive reading the testimonies of converts as it is the opposite reading the testimonies of apostates.

Haddeth are sayings fothe prophet as narrated in chains and for the majority of Muslims, he real and fake ones have already been discovered by others. Even Maulanas/Ulamaa (religious scholars) dont actually analyse hadeeth but they simply read the analysis of others and take it up the way they are taught in the religious schools. They dont tend do differ in opinion in anything substantial - only a few tiny issues like how to hold your hands in prayer.

In response to your point about the staticness of religion, Islam claims that it is divine and correct for all times (so the convertaives conclude that modernism is unnecssary). It is apprently the fastest growing religion in the world and its proponents claim it is miraculous that it's as revelant today as it was 1400 years ago.


For Spookie Ive found the Quran quote that says others may go to heaven apart from Muslims:

"Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in God and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve" - Quran 2:62

Still, things dont look up for the pagans :huh:

Giant Rabbit

I would never be stupid enough to publically renounce my faith or tell any Muslim - that may bring harm to me - it just takes one zealous idiot. I think far worse is when your mother sits next to you weeping because she is convinced I will enter the hellfire as Ive missed some daily prayers. That is very hard to take.

Plognark

Jeez, I can imagine

Well....SOME of them do
Certainly not all.

But I do understand the distinction you're making. That might, perhaps, explain a degree of the fanaticism of the stereotypical 'Islamic Zealot'. If you think the words are from god yourself, I imagine they carry far more weight than anything second hand from men.

Personally, my skeptical meter goes off whenever soemone mentions "innerrancy" when speaking of manuscripts that are thousands of years old and have been translated many times. Languages change, terms change, slang changes, and translators aren't perfect; they're human and fallible like the rest of us.

Jedi Mind Trick

Wow, Yeah... I hope I didn't offend?
I'm learning from you.

Yahzi

Just imagine, if you will, for the sake of argument, just pretend for a moment that all of Islam is a lie; a great big evil lie, told by men who know it is a lie, solely so that young people like you should be deprived of things like film and music, and instead give up your life killing strangers so that old men can wield more power and marry young virigins.

Now tell me: how much vitriol do you imagine you would feel?