Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-09-2008, 01:37 PM

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243234

About Lucian.

SlowTrainComing · 07-09-2008, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meatros

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

I see what you're saying here, but it's inaccurate. Josephus' work, some have claimed, has been altered to show a more favorable view of Christ. It is believed by some - not "almost universally admitted," but believed by some - that some of his statements referring to Christ's divinity were added to his writings. But all translations maintain his historical recordings of Jesus.

I'm no where near a bible scholar and I find it practically impossible for a Jew to write the above passage and remain a Jew.

How on earth can anyone look at that passage and not suspect at least some interpolation?

Are you familiar with Messianic Judaism?

Toto · 07-09-2008, 11:04 PM

Messianic Jews are Christians. The idea of Messianic Jews is a modern invention of Christian missionaries who want to convert Jews, and who think it will go over easier if they encourage Jews to retain their culture.

Josephus was not a Christian.

mountainman · 07-09-2008, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243234

About Lucian.

More fraud ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmon

LUCIAN of SAMOSATA:

Introduction by A.M. Harmon, 1913, Published in Loeb Classical Library, 9 volumes, Greek texts and facing English
translation: Harvard University Press.

Among the eighty-two pieces that have come down to us under the name of Lucian, there are not a few of which his authorship has been disputed. Certainly spurious are Halcyon, Nero, Philopatris, and Astrology; and to these, it seems to me, the Consonants at Law should be added. Furthermore. Deinostitenes, Gharidemus, Cynic, Love, Octogenarians, Hippias, Ungrammatical Man, Swiftfoot, amid the epigrams are generally considered spurious, and there are several others (Disowned and My Country in particular) which, to say the least, are of doubtful authenticity.

There are a hundred and fifty manuscripts of Lucian, more or less, which give us a tradition that is none too good. There is no satisfactory critical edition of Lucian except Nilén’s, which is now in progress. His text has been followed, as far as it was available, through the True Story. Beyond this point it has been necessary to make a new text for this edition. In order that text and translation may as far as possible correspond, conjectures have been admitted with considerable freedom: for the fact that a good many of them bear the initials of the translator he need not apologize if they are good; if they are not no apology will avail him. He is deeply indebted to Professor Edward Capps for reviewing his translation in the proof.

Meatros · 07-10-2008, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meatros

I'm no where near a bible scholar and I find it practically impossible for a Jew to write the above passage and remain a Jew.

How on earth can anyone look at that passage and not suspect at least some interpolation?

Are you familiar with Messianic Judaism?

Yes. I'm also familar with the history of Superman - I fail to see how either is relevant though.

Doug Shaver · 07-10-2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

But they're clear, contemporaneous accounts of Jesus walking the earth.

Just for the sake of discussion, I'll stipulate that there was a real Jesus of Nazareth whose followers started the Christian religion.

Next question: So what?

Keith&Co. · 07-10-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Now, it need be mentioned that I don't condone the message of the negative writings. But they're clear, contemporaneous accounts of Jesus walking the earth.

Just out of curiosity, how many years after Jesus' death would be your cutoff for 'contemporary' accounts of his life?

SlowTrainComing · 07-10-2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meatros

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Are you familiar with Messianic Judaism?

Yes. I'm also familar with the history of Superman - I fail to see how either is relevant though.

I was asked how a Jew could write about Christ's divinity and remain a Jew. The answer is Messianic Judaism. That's how it's relevant in this discussion.

SlowTrainComing · 07-10-2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith&Co.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Now, it need be mentioned that I don't condone the message of the negative writings. But they're clear, contemporaneous accounts of Jesus walking the earth.

Just out of curiosity, how many years after Jesus' death would be your cutoff for 'contemporary' accounts of his life?

Oh, we're invalidating accounts from 1,975 years ago... only ones from 1,981 years ago are accepted..... wow...

.....where are those dang goalposts?

Toto · 07-10-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

...
.....where are those dang goalposts?

Where they have always been, where you set them up. "Contemporary" has a clear meaning.

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07-09-2008, 01:37 PM	#11
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=243234 About Lucian.

07-09-2008, 11:04 PM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Messianic Jews are Christians. The idea of Messianic Jews is a modern invention of Christian missionaries who want to convert Jews, and who think it will go over easier if they encourage Jews to retain their culture. Josephus was not a Christian.

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