Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-11-2009, 02:17 AM

JESUS: NEITHER GOD NOR MAN The Case for a Mythical Jesus

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Quote:

JESUS: NEITHER GOD NOR MAN, at 814 pages and almost half a million words, offers an increased depth of evidence and argumentation in virtually every area of my original case as presented in The Jesus Puzzle, published ten years ago this week (October 1999). There are whole chapters devoted to specific topics, such as Galatians 4:4’s “born of woman,” the usages and meanings of phrases involving the term “flesh” (as in kata sarka), the Epistle to the Hebrews and its statement that Jesus had never been on earth, many facets of ancient salvation mythology and views of the spiritual world both Hellenistic and Jewish, Gnosticism, the existence of Q, the Gospels as midrash and allegory. The alleged non-Christian witness to Jesus has been greatly expanded, with every key figure covered in detail: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny, Thallus and Phlegon, Mara bar Serapion; plus a detailed survey of the Jewish rabbinical writings in regard to Jesus, including the Toledoth Yeshu. All are discredited or rendered unreliable as offering any witness to an historical Jesus. The Appendices have been expanded to include items such as Gnostic savior figures, the question of parallels between Jesus and the savior gods, the Apology of Aristides, and Robert Eisler’s physical portrait of Jesus derived from his supposed reconstruction from the Halosis of Josephus. The second century Apologists are dealt with in greater detail, with a new clincher in regard to Minucius Felix.

Ktotwf · 10-11-2009, 03:22 AM

I love The Jesus Puzzle, but not sure I want to wade through 800+ pages of it.

I hope this ignites some scholarly interest.

Deus Ex · 10-11-2009, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ktotwf

I love The Jesus Puzzle, but not sure I want to wade through 800+ pages of it.

I hope this ignites some scholarly interest.

Ditto.

I just finished his original book a few weeks ago.

avi · 10-11-2009, 10:04 AM

Thank you Toto for mentioning this.

I will be reading his book...

I appreciate your letting us know of its availability....

avi

Barefoot Bree · 10-11-2009, 01:24 PM

* want *

* adds to Christmas wish list * Appropriate, no?

Minimalist · 10-11-2009, 01:48 PM

I can hear the fundies warming up even now.

Thanks for the heads up, Toto.

wordy · 10-11-2009, 01:48 PM

I hope Earl is right. Would be best if Jesus really are pure myth.

But even if there was a historical Jesus I think Albert Schweizer got it right pointing out that there is no way for us to see the man for all the myths about him.

The real Jesus would be almost non-recognized behind all the hype about him.

I guess he was like a mix between "used car dealer ", Tele-evangelist, and SnakeOilCon-man. Smooth talking street wise type.

But as I love to point out.

It is the Jesus in the heart of the believers that motivates them to act and that is why the myth is alive and kicking. So it is the Mythic Jesus that is alive and not the HJ guy.

So in that sense Earl is right.

mountainman · 10-11-2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

The Gospels and Acts of the Apostles form one small portion of the early Christian documentary record. They reflect but one category of thought and witness to what that broad movement came to believe in. Modern scholars and believers alike view the world of early Christianity through the prism of this narrow handful of inbred writings, a chain of literary dependency and enlargement on the first one written, and it has distorted all that they see. The Gospels and Acts need to be put in their proper perspective, so that they no longer obscure a more clear-eyed view of what early Christianity constituted. That view can be found in everything from the New Testament epistles to the non-canonical documents,

I'd be interested on Earl's views on the non-canonical documents, and the gnostics and how the C14 and Nag Hammadi codices fit into his picture ....

Quote:

to the writings of the Gnostics and second century apologists. Until we allow ourselves to recognize what broader factors of the era brought the idea of a Jesus into being, and how he evolved over the first 150 years, the Western world will continue to live and perpetuate a fantasy…

I will be interested to read what Earl has put together. Another decade another book. A book which would have been supported by the well known American author Ralph Waldo Emerson who was for some reason quoted as saying "We must get rid of that Christ! We must get rid of that Christ!".

Doug Shaver · 10-12-2009, 06:58 AM

I can't buy it right now, but I'm eager to get it as soon as I can.

mg01 · 10-12-2009, 01:24 PM

The historical Jesus scenario starts with a mythologized messianic figure based on scriptures and ends with layers of additional mythological happenings (virgin birth, water walking, raising dead, resurrection, etc...) by later Christian writers. Whether or not the earliest groups based their authority off visions or a revered leader, in either case the end result is still a mythology. What is the point of postulating a purely mythical Jesus?

My impression is it isn't something we can answer, so I'm curious as to what factors lead one to argue one way or the other?

10-11-2009, 10:04 AM	#4
avi Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Location: eastern North America Posts: 1,468	thanks for the message... Thank you Toto for mentioning this. I will be reading his book... I appreciate your letting us know of its availability.... avi

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10-11-2009, 03:22 AM	#2
Ktotwf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,936	I love The Jesus Puzzle, but not sure I want to wade through 800+ pages of it. I hope this ignites some scholarly interest.

10-11-2009, 01:24 PM	#5
Barefoot Bree Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: East of ginger trees Posts: 12,637	* want * * adds to Christmas wish list * Appropriate, no?

10-11-2009, 01:48 PM	#6
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	I can hear the fundies warming up even now. Thanks for the heads up, Toto.

10-11-2009, 01:48 PM	#7
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	I hope Earl is right. Would be best if Jesus really are pure myth. But even if there was a historical Jesus I think Albert Schweizer got it right pointing out that there is no way for us to see the man for all the myths about him. The real Jesus would be almost non-recognized behind all the hype about him. I guess he was like a mix between "used car dealer ", Tele-evangelist, and SnakeOilCon-man. Smooth talking street wise type. But as I love to point out. It is the Jesus in the heart of the believers that motivates them to act and that is why the myth is alive and kicking. So it is the Mythic Jesus that is alive and not the HJ guy. So in that sense Earl is right.

10-12-2009, 06:58 AM	#9
Doug Shaver Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: San Bernardino, Calif. Posts: 5,435	I can't buy it right now, but I'm eager to get it as soon as I can.

10-12-2009, 01:24 PM	#10
mg01 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: USA Posts: 197	The historical Jesus scenario starts with a mythologized messianic figure based on scriptures and ends with layers of additional mythological happenings (virgin birth, water walking, raising dead, resurrection, etc...) by later Christian writers. Whether or not the earliest groups based their authority off visions or a revered leader, in either case the end result is still a mythology. What is the point of postulating a purely mythical Jesus? My impression is it isn't something we can answer, so I'm curious as to what factors lead one to argue one way or the other?

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