moonlight

I see Judaism as being a religion just like the others. Yet, I see few secularists pointing out its bad sides. Are we too easy on it because of the hardship it has endured? Is that hardship justification for LETTING IT SLIDE?

Points I see us not making tend to be:

It has established a theocracy in the Middle East , igniting never-ending violence. And US taxpayers are footing much of the bill.

When Congressman Moran asked if our wish to confront Iraq was because of Israili Lobby influence, he was shouted down and called a bigot. To me, condemning him so is just the sort of thing we'd expect from the likes of - Jerry Falwell! How many of us turned around and said his critics were the bigots? Or at least denying him his free speech? And stifling honest debate?

And, Judaism is largely a racial religion. While racial pride and the quest for racial purity are OK and separate from bigotry, is it inevitable that the fine line will sometimes be crossed over?

Just thoughts. I simply think we are neglecting to criticise another religion out there. Are we afraid that by pointing it's faults out, we wil encourage the lunatic fringe?

Moonlight

socratoad

I do not propose or assume that I speak for others on the board however it generally religion I find to be objectionable. In shot: The whole sky fairy thing.

I suspect that there is just not nearly enough fist-waving at one religion in particular that you are wishing to see.

Is there a not very well hidden agenda here?

Strangeways

I think in condemning Christianity you're condemning a lot of Judaism as well. Any comments on the Christian God are also going to be comments on the Jewish God for instance. And any attacks on the Old Testament, even if it's attacking a Christian thought related to the Old Testament, will also be attacking Judaism. In pointing out the flaws of the sky god of Christianity you are sometimes simultanesouly pointing out the flaws of the sky god of Judaism. I just think a lot of the arguments against Judaism overlap with Christianity.

Strangeways

Arken

Argh! For the billionth time, JEWS ARE NOT ISRAELIS. A lot of Israelis are Jews, but there are more Jews living in NYC than in Israel. Fine to talk about atheists not criticizing Judaism as a religion, but-

1) It is not a theocracy. There are very religious people in the government, but it is a democratic republic. A theocracy is by definition not democratic. If it were a theocracy, rabbis would be in charge, not secular leaders.

2) The violence was there long before Israel ever was. It's a region prone to violence. Israel is one of the current major aggressors but to suggest it was a land of peace and prosperity before 1948 is disingenuous.

3) Israeli taxpayers foot more of the bill than U.S. taxpayers. It's a pretty rich nation. Admittedly, we give far more aid to Israel than I would personally like, but we are not footing 'much of the bill' by any step of the imagination.

Since Jewish and Israeli are not synonyms, this point is moot.

Only if you mean orthodox judaism. Most Jews in the world don't care about 'racial purity'. There are different types of Judaism just as there are different types of christianity. To say that 'Judaism is largely a racial religion' is like saying 'Christianity is largely a religion that uses Latin.' Not even most Catholics use Latin anymore. In the 19th century, a lot of Jews got fed up with the antiquated practices and abandoned them. You'll find plenty of Jewish households that don't even frown on eating pork.

Well, pointing out the faults of Judaism by talking about Israel is, IMO, encouraging the lunatic fringe. If you want to point out the faults of Judaism, talk about things that Judaism actually teaches like circumcision, dietary laws, subjugation of women in orthodox sects, belief in an all-powerful superbeing, etc... As I said, many of these laws have even been abandoned. You're treating judaism as if it is all the same. Would you do that to Christianity? You really think that the Amish, the Quakers and the Baptists all have exactly the same flaws? I'm sure you don't. They share a few, as I see it, but to criticize them in the same way you did Jews isn't very rational criticism for either group.

Also, I think Strangeways has an excellent point, although there are definitely specifics about Judaism which can be criticized apart from Christianity (ritual circumcision being one for instance... I don't personally criticize it, but I think that the critics have a valid point).

Chris Weimer

I think the majority here criticizes proselytizing religions, e.g. Christianity and Islam, more than the other ones. That which provokes reaction will surely get it.

Megusic

Very true. Although I haven't known many Jewish people, I have never from them gotten a flyer, a knock on my door, or been witnessed to. No Jew has ever tried to convince me that the US was based on Jewish beliefs.

In addition to this statement, many IIDB members deconverted from some sort of Christianity, which is one of the main reasons it is targeted so on this board.

If it came down to a discussion about the religion itself (as I'm sure has been done in the higher forums) I'm sure most people here wouldn't be "easy" on Judiasm, but as long as the religion and its followers aren't proselytizing in our faces, it won't pop up into discussion as much.

Barefoot Bree

We're going to try this one in GRD. Bon voyage!

mightyjoemoon

I think part of it has to do with the way that the majority of Jews live out their "religion." At this point it seems (from an outsider's perspective, mind you) that it is a set of ethnic rituals, a shared ethnic history (mythological or not, it serves a unifying purpose), and a familial tradition passed down much like the "ways of the old country," or something. Most Jews don't take the Hebrew Bible all that seriously anymore, as evidenced by the kind of things that Arken mentioned. This has lead to a state where Jewish people are viewed as an ethnic group and not a religion, for the most part. Anti-semitism is largely a racist movement, not a religious movement. That being said, I think a lot of people don't speak out against "Judaism" for fear of being labeled an anti-Semite.

On the other hand, Muslims tend to still take their religion very very seriously, in some cases willing to go so far as kill themselves and others in the name of Allah. And, at least in the US, many Christians still take their religion very seriously, feeling compelled to not only proselytize, which can be annoying, but also to force their religious beliefs into public policy and the cultural discourse. That leads to those two religions being more confrontational and problematic for secular people, which leads to more criticism than is directed at Judaism.

If Jews started taking their religion and the Bible seriously, declaring themselves God's chosen people, slaughtering the Gentiles, taking slaves and circumcising them, tearing down idolatrous churches, and performing animal sacrifices, suddenly Judaism would be very controversial.

Also, the most rabid pro-Israeli (or Zionist, whatever you want to call it) voices in the U.S. today are not Jews at all, but fundamentalist Christians.

Heathen Dawn

I see it as quite similar to Islam in giving each believer a law-code that regulates every aspect of their lives. I tried going by that law-code for two years.

That’s mainly because of fear of appearing antisemitic.

Nope, Israel isn’t a theocracy yet. But the religious Jews do stir up political motions.

That is true. Jews still see themselves as the Chosen People.

All OK with me so long as you don’t give the Muslims a clean bill of health.

Ftoomsch

Well said. :notworthy

And anyway, Moonlight, why don't you start a thread that questions or critiques specific tenets of Judaism if that is what you want to talk about? It would be refreshing to see one that is an analysis of the religion rather than yet another Muslim versus Jew or Jew versus Christian argument.