Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roren · 08-09-2004, 08:06 PM

Toto: "If Jesus had really been a miracle worker, he should have explained quantum mechanics or germ theory to his followers."

If he HAD explained germ theory or quantum mechanics, would you have believed him? If human testimony or experience isn’t good enough as evidence for you, then why do you have faith in your own beliefs and experiences?

There is no miracle or action Christ would perform that would take away our freedom of choice to decide whether or not to believe in Him.

NOGO: "By justifying the state of the tree the author probably wants the reader to know that the tree was not sick to begin with. Therefore the intent it seems to me was to show how much power Jesus had."

Ooh, good point. But this parable could be interpreted as a warning to human beings. Yes, we are imperfect and make mistakes. On our own, we are not even expected to be perfect (for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God), but we are not to go on sinning. And like the man who should never sleep because death/the Second Coming could come as unexpectedly as a thief in the night, the intention is not to convey an expectation of perfection (since we all sleep), but more of a warning not to sleep (not physically, but spiritually speaking).

Miss Gumby Quote:
"But anyone who says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

(Jesus speaking) Matthew 5:22

... later condemning himself to hell, rubbing it in several times in the process.

"You fools!" (Jesus speaking) Luke 11:40

If anyone had the authority to call someone a fool, wouldn't be an omniscient being one of them?
Note the use of the words ‘in danger of’. This is not a condemnation but a warning. Anger is not condemned in the Bible (Jesus got angry) but participation in it is warned against (be slow to anger). It's easier to sin when doing certain things (get angry/start name calling). When you’re angry and you discipline your child, you tend to be too harsh (like when you accidentally punch a friend when they tickle you and you hate it) or when you call someone a fool you might tend to be prideful (thinking you’re better than someone else) or perhaps using the word only to cause emotional damage.

Toto Quote: Jesus could have spent some time teaching his followers about avoiding contamination and spoiled food, telling them that illness is not caused by bad spirits and will not be helped by punishing the ill person.

God did that in the old testament. All those laws about mold and mildew in Leviticus? I don’t think he attributed them to bad spirits but…science that they just didn’t get back then

Vorkosigan Quote: There is so much useful knowledge that Jesus might have communicated. Think of all the scientific and engineering knowledge Jesus might have discussed, which could readily have been understood by the people around him, especially the Romans, who were fabulous engineers.

If you believe that Jesus was God and therefore omniscient and omnipotent, then you believe that no power or knowledge is gained on our own.
John 19 (Jesus is before Pilate before being crucified)
10"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
11Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.�?

Most Christians attribute all their successes to God. As in - God DID give the Romans all their engineering talents.

“He could have given them many ideas on the operation of government, from civil service exams to merit pay.

In short, Jesus' "wisdom" must be measured against what he could have done, were he really the Son of God. But instead, his store of knowledge, ethics, and politics, is not different from anything already known in his time. The conclusion is obvious.�?

Don’t steal, don’t cheat, don’t be lazy, don’t kill, don’t hate. Sounds like rules for an operation of government if you ask me. He even said stuff like, ‘Obey authority’ (Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.) and ‘give taxes to Caesar’ (Matthew 22:21 Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." )

Sorry my quotes don't look good. I was waiting to be approved for the board and wrote out all my responses in Word, hence the lack of formatting.

inquisitive01 · 08-09-2004, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Pete

Forgive me for not putting this in my own words, but this man who lived over 100 years ago puts it so much more eloquently than I possibly could............

-About the Holy Bible- Robert G. Ingersoll 1894

THE PHILOSOPHY OF CHRIST.

Millions assert that the philosophy of Christ is perfect -- that he was the wisest that ever uttered speech.

Let us see:

Resist not evil. If smitten on one cheek turn the other.

Is there any philosophy, any wisdom in this? Christ takes from goodness, from virtue, from the truth, the right of self-defence. Vice becomes the master of the world, and the good become the victims of the infamous.

No man has the right to protect himself, his property, his wife and children. Government becomes impossible, and the world is at the mercy of criminals. Is there any absurdity beyond this?

Love your enemies.

Is this possible? Did any human being ever love his enemies? Did Christ love his, when he denounced them as whited sepulchers, hypocrites and vipers?

We cannot love those who hate us. Hatred in the hearts of others does not breed love in ours. Not to resist evil is absurd; to love your enemies is impossible.

Take no thought for the morrow.

The idea was that God would take care of us as he did of sparrows and lilies. Is there the least sense in that belief?

Does God take care of anybody?

Can we live without taking thought for the morrow? To plow, to sow, to cultivate, to harvest, is to take thought for the morrow. We plan and work for the future, for our children, for the unborn generations to come. Without this forethought there could be no progress, no civilization. The world would go back to the caves and dens of savagery.

If thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out. If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off.

Why? Because it is better that one of our members should perish than that the whole body should be cast into hell.

Is there any wisdom in putting out your eyes or cutting off your hands? Is it possible to extract from these extravagant sayings the smallest grain of common sense?

Swear not at all; neither by Heaven, for it is God's throne; nor by the Earth, for it is his footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is his holy city.

Here we find the astronomy and geology of Christ. Heaven is the throne of God, the monarch; the earth is his footstool. A footstool that turns over at the rate of a thousand miles an hour, and sweeps through space at the rate of over a thousand miles a minute!

Where did Christ think heaven was? Why was Jerusalem a holy city? Was it because the inhabitants were ignorant, crud and superstitious?

If any man will sue thee at the law and take away thy coat let him have thy cloak also.

Is there any philosophy, any good sense, in that commandment? Would it not be just as sensible to say: "If a man obtains a judgment against you for one hundred dollars, give him two hundred."

Only the insane could give or follow this advice.

Think not I come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother.

If this is true, how much better it would have been had he remained away.

Is it possible that he who said, "Resist not evil," came to bring a sword? That he who said, "Love your enemies," came to destroy the peace of the world?

To set father against son, and daughter against father -- what a glorious mission!

He did bring a sword, and the sword was wet for a thousand years with innocent blood. In millions of hearts he sowed the seeds of hatred and revenge. He divided nations and families, put out the light of reason, and petrified the hearts of men.

And every one that hath forsaken house, or breathren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

According to the writer of Matthew, Christ, the compassionate, the merciful, uttered these terrible words. Is it possible that Christ offered the bribe of eternal joy to those who would desert their fathers, their mothers, their wives and children? Are we to win the happiness of heaven by deserting the ones we love? Is a home to be ruined here for the sake of a mansion there?

And yet it is said that Christ is an example for all the world. Did he desert his father and mother? He said, speaking to his mother: "Woman, what have I to do with thee?"

The Pharisees said unto Christ: "Is it lawful to pay tribute unto Caesar?

Christ said: "Show me the tribute money."They brought him a penny. And he saith unto them: "Whose is the image and the superscription? "They said: "Caesar's." And Christ said: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's."

Did Christ think that the money belonged to Caesar because his image and superscription were stamped upon it? Did the penny belong to Caesar or to the man who had earned it? Had Caesar the right to demand it because it was adorned with his image?

Does it appear from this conversation that Christ understood the real nature and use of money?

Can we now say that Christ was the greatest of philosophers?

IX

IS CHRIST OUR EXAMPLE?

He never said a word in favor of education. He never even hinted at the existence of any science. He never uttered a word in favor of industry, economy or of any effort to better our condition in this world. He was the enemy of the successful, of the wealthy. Dives was sent to hell, not because he was bad, but because he was rich. Lazarus went to heaven, not because he was good, but because he was poor.

Christ cared nothing for painting, for sculpture, for music -- nothing for any art. He said nothing about the duties of nation to nation, of king to subject; nothing about the rights of man; nothing about intellectual liberty or the freedom of speech. He said nothing about the sacredness of home; not one word for the fireside; not a word in favor of marriage, in honor of maternity.

He never married. He wandered homeless from place to place with a few disciples. None of them seem to have been engaged in any useful business, and they seem to have lived on alms.

All human ties were held in contempt; this world was sacrificed for the next; all human effort was discouraged. God would support and protect.

At last, in the dusk of death, Christ, finding that he was mistaken, cried out: "My God My God! Why hast thou forsaken me?"

Why did he not plainly say: "I am the Son of God," or, "I am God"? Why did he not explain the Trinity? Why did he not tell the mode of baptism that was pleasing to him? Why did he not write a creed? Why did he not break the chains of slaves? Why did he not say that the Old Testament was or was not the inspired word of God? Why did he not write the New Testament himself? Why did he leave his words to ignorance, hypocrisy and chance? Why did he not say something positive, definite and satisfactory about another world? Why did he not turn the tear-stained hope of heaven into the glad knowledge of another life? Why did he not tell us something of the rights of man, of the liberty of hand and brain?

Why did he go dumbly to his death, leaving the world to misery and to doubt?

I will tell you why. He was a man, and did not know.

Very nice example of WORLD-RELATED questions... some of which have answers (which apparently you haven't found yet), while others simply cannot be answered.

Basically, it seems you are questioning God (along with Jesus), who likely knows MUCH more than any of us can even begin to comprehend. This is likely the main problem, though. Our vanity INSISTS that we must somehow be able to determine these answers... if not, then that which is related to these answers must be false (we no longer believe it).

YET (and what I find much harder to believe), one in the Armed Services will not normally go so far as to even bring up one single question as to why the troops have just been ordered (by a person who's first name may not even be known) to undergo a mission where many (of these troops) will either have the potential to be killed, badly wounded, or taken prisoner (oh yeah, in this case we are required to trust that this person has made the best judgement possible and we are to follow his/her orders regardless of what we think/feel about them). :huh:

HappyJack09 · 08-10-2004, 01:39 AM

If Jesus is to be regarded as anything, based on this story, he should probably be regarded as angry, since the fig tree did not have any fruit on it when he was hungry. But that is not the case either. This account is far deeper than that, but your view of it is possibly a product of personal faith more than anything. The New Testament Gospels are an actual account of Jesus Christ, fractured, coded and mixed with parables and lessons, to hide the ultimate message from most people. It was designed that way purposely.

The Talmud mentions Jesus Christ,though not necessarily in glowing terms. But it does credit a man named Jesus for having lived at the time of the Dispersion, though from a highly prejudiced viewpoint. Unless the Talmud is as unreliable a historic witness as you claim the New Testament to be, then Jesus Christ surely lived.

You ascribe stupidity to him perhaps because that is what you may have been taught to believe. Or that you just haven't been taught by someone who understands the New Testament. Or perhaps you do not fully understand the meaning of this significant metaphor, which relates to an end of the age condition.

To ascribe such a one-sided and particularly negative view of this one sliver from the most read, published and profound book of all history would be as short-sighted as saying that because Jacob got over on his brother Esau and made him sell his birthright, that all descendants of Jacob are cheats and that they take advantage of their brothers when they are down and they cannot be trusted. We know that is not the case.

breathilizer · 08-10-2004, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

QUOTE: "Haven't you ever been to a party where the babbling drunk bafoon walks up to a tree to fight it? I know I HAVE, more than once even."

As stated earlier, Verses in Ephesians and elsewhere clearly state "Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; instead, be filled with the spirit." For any other rational thinkers that might be lurking... no, "spirit" does not mean "spirits" (as in alcohol).

Dude, it was a joke.

Skeptic Pete · 08-10-2004, 01:45 AM

Well gee I'm sorry if my questions are "world related" whatever the f**k that means, but I live in this world so you can expect my questions to be 'world related" :huh:

Of course I am questioning god ! Why the f**k shouldn't I?

Inquisitive, I have been reading your posts here for a while and I really think you need to take a step back and look at your own belief system before criticising mine.

Why did jesus not state categorically who he was?
Why did jesus do nothing to help the human race in any way?
Why was jesus such a moron as to not even understand his fellow man?
Why did he go dumbly to his death, leaving the world to misery and to doubt?

I will tell you why. He was a man, and did not know.

I am sick of being told by people both in real life and also here online that I have to respect these religious beliefs.
I respect nothing about your belief and refuse to hold my tongue.

If you, Inquisitive (strange choice of name by the way for someone who is obviously not inquisitive at all), can read that piece by Robert Ingersoll and still think that you have a case for arguing christs' divinity or wisdom then your religion is even worse than I thought.

"I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Skeptic Pete · 08-10-2004, 02:00 AM

Quote: