Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RED DAVE · 03-27-2007, 05:04 AM

LITTLE PROBLEM

Socrates’ years: ca 470 BCE - 399 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates

Aristotle’s years: 384 BCE - 322 BCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle

It would have been difficult for them to be lovers unless Aristotle was heavy into necrophilia. Socrates was dead for 15 years when Aristotle was born and for about 32 years when Aristotle arrived at Athens.

RED DAVE

Dean Anderson · 03-27-2007, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

No mention here of Aristotle being an orphan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle#Life

Wikipedia doesn't mention it, but Nicomachus died when Aristotle was 10 years old (Phaestis had already been dead for some time) and Aristotle's uncle, Proxenus, became his guardian until he moved to Athens at the age of 18.

A quick Google search for "Aristotle" and "Proxenus" gives lots of references for this (although some say that Proxenus was not a blood relation, but merely a family friend).

RED DAVE · 03-27-2007, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Aristotle was born in Stagirus, or Stagira, or Stageirus, on the Chalcidic peninsula of northern Greece. His father was Nicomachus, a medical doctor, while his mother was named Phaestis. Nicomachus was certainly living in Chalcidice when Aristotle was born and he had probably been born in that region. Aristotle's mother, Phaestis, came from Chalcis in Euboea and her family owned property there.

There is little doubt that Nicomachus would have intended Aristotle to become a doctor, for the tradition was that medical skills were kept secret and handed down from father to son. It was not a society where people visited a doctor but rather it was the doctors who travelled round the country tending to the sick. Although we know nothing of Aristotle's early years it is highly likely that he would have accompanied his father in his travels. We do know that Nicomachus found the conditions in Chalcidice less satisfactory than in the neighbouring state of Macedonia and he began to work there with so much success that he was soon appointed as the personal physician to Amyntas III, king of Macedonia.

There is no record to indicate whether Aristotle lived with his father in Pella, the capital of Macedonia, while Nicomachus attended to king Amyntas at the court there. However, Aristotle was certainly friendly with Philip, king Amyntas's son, some years later and it seems reasonable to assume that the two, who were almost exactly the same age, had become friendly in Pella as young children.

When Aristotle was about ten years old his father died. This certainly meant that Aristotle could not now follow in his father's profession of doctor and, since his mother seems also to have died young, Aristotle was brought up by a guardian, Proxenus of Atarneus, who was his uncle (or possibly a family friend as is suggested by some authors). Proxenus taught Aristotle Greek, rhetoric, and poetry which complemented the biological teachings that Nicomachus had given Aristotle as part of training his son in medicine. Since in latter life Aristotle wrote fine Greek prose, this too must have been part of his early education.

In 367 BC Aristotle, at the age of seventeen, became a student at Plato's Academy in Athens. At the time that Aristotle joined the Academy it had been operating for twenty years. Plato was not in Athens, but rather he was on his first visit to Syracuse. We should not think of Plato's Academy as a non-political organisation only interested in abstract ideas. The Academy was highly involved in the politics of the time, in fact Plato's visit to Sicily was for political reasons, and the politics of the Academy and of the whole region would play a major role in influencing the course of Aristotle's life.

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~...Aristotle.html

Please note that Phaedo is mentioned in the dialogue of the same name as having been an adult witness to the death of Socrates, 15 years before Aristotle was born.

Enough with the bullshit.

RED DAVE

RED DAVE · 03-27-2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Phaedo

By Plato

Written 360 B.C.E

Translated by Benjamin Jowett

Persons of the Dialogue

PHAEDO, who is the narrator of the dialogue to ECHECRATES of Phlius
SOCRATES
APOLLODORUS
SIMMIAS
CEBES
CRITO
ATTENDANT OF THE PRISON
Scene
The Prison of Socrates.

Place OF THE NARRATION: Phlius.

Echecrates. Were you yourself, Phaedo, in the prison with Socrates on the day when he drank the poison?

Phaedo. Yes, Echecrates, I was.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedo.html

RED DAVE

Pataphysician · 03-27-2007, 10:30 AM

Phaedo was from Elis, not Macedon, he was taken captive in war(it's quite possible his parents lived), so not really an orphan like Aristotle, whose father died. He was taken captive When Sparta and Elis warred in 401-400 BC. He was then taken as a slave to Athens, where he was set free, possibly by Socrates. He was 18 When Socrates died in 399, therefore he was probably 16 when he first met Socrates. Greek pederasty was only with pubescent youths, so a ten year old would be out, 13-14 would be the beginning age and 22-23 the end age.

So the only resemblance left is that Phaedo and Aristotle are both Greeks and philosophers.

RED DAVE · 03-27-2007, 10:56 AM

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

But having created this suspicion, we can move directly to the chronology implications. That is, if Phaedo and Aristotle were really the same historical reference

This is based solely on some vague resemblance between their stories: they were both orphaned.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

then Socrates would have died in 366BCE when Aristotle/Phaedo was 18 years of age.

And on this basis, vague resemblance between stories, you think you are justified in altering the entire chronology for Socrates life.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

Aristotle was born in 384BCE.

Why do accept this date and not the established date for Socrates' birth. Just on the basis of the resemblance between Phaedo's and Aristotle's stories?

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

Socrates was 32 years old when the Peloponnesian War began.

Why accept this date and not the established date of Socrates' birth?

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

If he was born in 435BCE then the war would have begun in 403BCE.

So on the basis of the resemblance of two stories, you revise the dates of Socrates' birth and the beginning of the Peloponnesian War.

From Larsguy47:

Quote:

That means year 8 falls in 396BCE, the 41st year of Artaxerxes. Thus Artaxerxes began to rule in 437BCE. Artaxerxes had claimed he was the son of Xerxes, but in actuality they were the same king.

And on what basis do you make this assertion?

I'll stop here.

1) Larsguy47 let's see some evidence, that's evidence, as in sources, that Socrates did not die ca 399 BC.

Socrates: ca 470 BCE - 399 BCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates

2) Larsguy47 let's see some evidence, that's evidence, as in sources, that the Peloponnesian War began in 403 BCE.

Peloponnesian War: 431 BCE - 404 BCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War

3) Larsguy47 let's see some evidence, that's evidence, as in sources, Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same person.

Xerxes I: reigned 485 BCE - 465 BCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_I_of_Persia

Artaxerxes I: reigned 465 BCE - 424 BCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artaxerxes_I_of_Persia

Curiouser and curiouser.

RED DAVE

Weltall · 03-27-2007, 11:04 AM

Another thread where Lars declares that scholarship is wrong and dates must be moved to match up with his version of biblical events (and people merged). A somewhat refreshing change from Noah's Ark threads and the Tyre prophecy I suppose.

RED DAVE · 03-27-2007, 05:11 PM

Still waiting, here, Larsguy47. You made some pretty wild statements so, one more time:

1) Let's see some evidence, that's evidence, as in sources, that Socrates did not die ca 399 BC.

Socrates: ca 470 BCE - 399 BCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates

2) Let's see some evidence, that's evidence, as in sources, that the Peloponnesian War began in 403 BCE.

Peloponnesian War: 431 BCE - 404 BCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War

3) Let's see some evidence, that's evidence, as in sources, Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same person.

Xerxes I: reigned 485 BCE - 465 BCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_I_of_Persia

Artaxerxes I: reigned 465 BCE - 424 BCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artaxerxes_I_of_Persia

RED DAVE

Gamera · 03-27-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

LITTLE PROBLEM

Socrates’ years: ca 470 BCE - 399 BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates

Aristotle’s years: 384 BCE - 322 BCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle

It would have been difficult for them to be lovers unless Aristotle was heavy into necrophilia. Socrates was dead for 15 years when Aristotle was born and for about 32 years when Aristotle arrived at Athens.

RED DAVE

I don't quite fathom what Lars is getting at, but claiming specific dates for Socrates and Aristotles birth and death is ill advised. We know virtually nothing about Socrates, and it all comes from biased sources. We know a little more about Aristotles, but again, dating him to a year is highly suspect.

RED DAVE · 03-27-2007, 07:38 PM

From Gamera:

Quote:

I don't quite fathom what Lars is getting at, but claiming specific dates for Socrates and Aristotles birth and death is ill advised.

Not so. There are ample historic sources.

From Gamera:

Quote:

We know virtually nothing about Socrates, and it all comes from biased sources.

Actually, we know quite a bit. What do you mean by "biased"?

From Gamera:

Quote:

We know a little more about Aristotles, but again, dating him to a year is highly suspect.

His birthdate, as most birthdates of people we are talkikng about on these threads: Socrates, Plato, Phaedo, can be reliably dated within a few years.

RED DAVE

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03-27-2007, 05:04 AM	#11
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	LITTLE PROBLEM Socrates’ years: ca 470 BCE - 399 BCE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates Aristotle’s years: 384 BCE - 322 BCE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle It would have been difficult for them to be lovers unless Aristotle was heavy into necrophilia. Socrates was dead for 15 years when Aristotle was born and for about 32 years when Aristotle arrived at Athens. RED DAVE

03-27-2007, 10:30 AM	#15
Pataphysician Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Chicago Posts: 38	Phaedo was from Elis, not Macedon, he was taken captive in war(it's quite possible his parents lived), so not really an orphan like Aristotle, whose father died. He was taken captive When Sparta and Elis warred in 401-400 BC. He was then taken as a slave to Athens, where he was set free, possibly by Socrates. He was 18 When Socrates died in 399, therefore he was probably 16 when he first met Socrates. Greek pederasty was only with pubescent youths, so a ten year old would be out, 13-14 would be the beginning age and 22-23 the end age. So the only resemblance left is that Phaedo and Aristotle are both Greeks and philosophers.

03-27-2007, 11:04 AM	#17
Weltall Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Francisco Posts: 3,283	Another thread where Lars declares that scholarship is wrong and dates must be moved to match up with his version of biblical events (and people merged). A somewhat refreshing change from Noah's Ark threads and the Tyre prophecy I suppose.

03-27-2007, 05:11 PM	#18
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	Still waiting, here, Larsguy47. You made some pretty wild statements so, one more time: 1) Let's see some evidence, that's evidence, as in sources, that Socrates did not die ca 399 BC. Socrates: ca 470 BCE - 399 BCE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates 2) Let's see some evidence, that's evidence, as in sources, that the Peloponnesian War began in 403 BCE. Peloponnesian War: 431 BCE - 404 BCE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War 3) Let's see some evidence, that's evidence, as in sources, Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same person. Xerxes I: reigned 485 BCE - 465 BCE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_I_of_Persia Artaxerxes I: reigned 465 BCE - 424 BCE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artaxerxes_I_of_Persia RED DAVE

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