Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 02-10-2013, 11:24 AM

A few thoughts:

1. The book of Esther uses numbered days and months but doesn't understand the calendar, so five days in the book fall on the Shabbat.

2. There was a time before the 2nd c. BCE when Gerizzim & Jerusalem were close enough to have the Jerusalem high priests related to the priests on Gerizzim.

3. The Sadducees (who had sided with Aristobulus in 63 BCE) were those who died in the temple siege--so still praying at the altar--, ie the Palestinian Sadducees were culled, and I think eliminated in the siege. That leaves only Sadducees in Egypt (Onias IV's cronies' descendants) and whoever was in Babylon.

4. The 364 days comes from adding those four days to the 360-day Persian system. It was what was in vogue before the 364. That's what comes out of Enoch's Astronomical Book. My guess is 3rd c. BCE. I don't think the Astronomy Book can be pushed back earlier and it is what presents the four days as essential.

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 11:27 AM

All of this seems vaguely reminiscent also of the various heresies. The Marcosians were interested in 360 powers in heaven. The Montanists continued to preserve a calendar of 12 30 day months. It would be interesting to see if Jesus in the gospel was understood to be 'God' in this specific cultural context. I have always thought that the term 'gospel' goes back to an Aramaic term for announcement of the Jubilee. Again from my friend Rory Boid, personal correspondence:

Quote:

I have read the section of the Samaritan Arabic commentary on the Torah. The announcement is on the Day of Atonement of the 49th year. The 50th year starts on the first of the first month of the following year. The reason the announcement is nearly six months before is to allow enough time FOR HERALDS TO TRAVEL TO OTHER COUNTRIES.

The Samaritan Arabic commentary on the Torah, on Leviticus XXV:9. Slightly condensed and slightly re-arranged translation. “The High Priest and the King acting together are to send heralds out on the Day of Atonement to go into all countries over the next six months blowing the shofar in every land and region [not just Canaan] with the announcement [bashâ’ir, plural of bashîrah] of the information of the approach of the Jubilee Year and the release of captives SO THAT IT REACHES THE WHOLE NATION”. The Arabic bashîrah = the Hebrew bassorah. The person doing it is the mubashshir = Hebrew mevasser, or the bashîr. Notice carefully that the bashîrah is not the information, but the announcement of it. This is the connotation of the Greek euangelion. Notice that the meaning only becomes clear and sharp in the context of the SAMARITAN halachah. Please put this in the book somewhere in my name.

As said, the Samaritans never use the expression “Land of Israel”. It is always Canaan in a religious context and Palestine in a geographical context, whether writing in Hebrew or Aramaic or Arabic

Sheshbazzar · 02-10-2013, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Yes. The key is that 364 can be divided by 7.

So can 367.5

Five digits are on the right hand, and five digits are on the left hand.

You know... 364 + 3.5

or divided by that 3.5 which is 84

105 days is what?

And the tenth part?

Wooosh! (that's the sound of this flying right over your head) But the elohim do know. :hysterical:

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 11:40 AM

Quote:

1. The book of Esther uses numbered days and months but doesn't understand the calendar, so five days in the book fall on the Shabbat.

Yes, Esther has a strange calendar too. The fast of Esther on the thirteenth of Adar. The Samaritans have an interesting celebration used to calculate the start of the year - the zimmut (= synodos or ‘coming together' but a common astrological terminology). In the current liturgy there are two so-called ‘conjunctions’ established sixty days before the festivals of Passover and Sukkoth. It would be interesting to see where these dates would correspond in a 364 day calendar.

Not only is Aaron’s meeting with Moses literally described as the moon being drawn into the fire of the sun there are clear expressions of love and affection which help identify it as at the same time the source of the Christian. All of these ideas are developed and crystalized in the thirteenth century poem by Aaron ben Maner now sung each Zimmot of Passover in the Samaritan liturgy. It was translated especially for me by my good friend Benny Tsedaka from the original Aramaic. The poem begins:

Quote:

Listen to my words,
Beautiful and heavy words,
Coming from full heart,
And the Almighty supports it,
My words will inform you,
what is quickly done,
Between the Man that testify,
The Great Prophet,
When Aaron went out to meet him,
With happiness and greatness,
He raised his eyes from far,
Saw an honored light,
Hid the light of the sun,
Like a flame of fire,
He said: Is it an Angel?
Or Prophet? or a king? or a obedience?
And he was wondering in his heart,
Could not stand still.
And the Angel of God said to him
With an honorable way,
Aaron, He is you brother Moses,
That promoted and honored,
Go forward and greet him,
And kiss his hand.
Aaron went towards Moses
And bowed down before him,
Saying to him, Hello my brother Moses,
The honorable man,
Hello the messenger of the Almighty
The Slave of the Almighty,
Hello the Man of the Almighty,
That his hand was raised,
I never expected to see your face,
And be hold the Almighty let us meet,
Today is between you and me,
In happiness and kindness,
Today the Will
Established in it,
The meeting of Aaron and his brother,
The meeting of kind with kind
The meeting of the moon and sun,
Meeting of teacher with teacher.
There Aaron prayed,
And honored and praised,
And said: The World Creator,
Should be bowed to the Almighty.
And the Angels Commented and said:
The Almighty is King and the world witness.
In no uncertain terms then
When Aaron went out to meet him,
With happiness and greatness,
He raised his eyes from far,
Saw an honored light,
Hid the light of the sun,
Like a flame of fire.

I think it is interesting that at the core of the Jewish experience is such a strong astrological interest.

Robert Tulip · 02-10-2013, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

...skill of scanning through things and picking out something trivial, out of context to avoid the import of what is being said.

Now why is it that this seems to precisely describe Stephan's own modus operandi in this thread?

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Now why is it that this seems to precisely describe Stephan's own modus operandi in this thread?

Sure. I am the only one in history to notice the 364 day calendar and its connection to the oldest strata of Jewish culture. The only one. Just me and my imagination.

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 11:49 AM

Quote:

2. There was a time before the 2nd c. BCE when Gerizzim & Jerusalem were close enough to have the Jerusalem high priests related to the priests on Gerizzim.

3. The Sadducees (who had sided with Aristobulus in 63 BCE) were those who died in the temple siege--so still praying at the altar--, ie the Palestinian Sadducees were culled, and I think eliminated in the siege. That leaves only Sadducees in Egypt (Onias IV's cronies' descendants) and whoever was in Babylon.

4. The 364 days comes from adding those four days to the 360-day Persian system. It was what was in vogue before the 364. That's what comes out of Enoch's Astronomical Book. My guess is 3rd c. BCE. I don't think the Astronomy Book can be pushed back earlier and it is what presents the four days as essential.

Yes spin. I think you are basically correct. I think there were remnants of this original system spread across the Jewish and Samaritan diaspora but it lost its authority in Palestine.

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 11:52 AM

But it is harder to explain how the system got wiped out in both Samaria and Judea. The same underlying causes - i.e. sieges/war?

Sheshbazzar · 02-10-2013, 11:52 AM

ברב דברים לא יחדל־פשע

stephan huller · 02-10-2013, 11:54 AM

More on the 364 day calendar (sorry to the group for using a term that sounds like 'moron'):

http://www.academia.edu/523554/The_3...Pseudepigrapha

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-10-2013, 11:24 AM	#811
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	A few thoughts: 1. The book of Esther uses numbered days and months but doesn't understand the calendar, so five days in the book fall on the Shabbat. 2. There was a time before the 2nd c. BCE when Gerizzim & Jerusalem were close enough to have the Jerusalem high priests related to the priests on Gerizzim. 3. The Sadducees (who had sided with Aristobulus in 63 BCE) were those who died in the temple siege--so still praying at the altar--, ie the Palestinian Sadducees were culled, and I think eliminated in the siege. That leaves only Sadducees in Egypt (Onias IV's cronies' descendants) and whoever was in Babylon. 4. The 364 days comes from adding those four days to the 360-day Persian system. It was what was in vogue before the 364. That's what comes out of Enoch's Astronomical Book. My guess is 3rd c. BCE. I don't think the Astronomy Book can be pushed back earlier and it is what presents the four days as essential.

02-10-2013, 11:52 AM	#818
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But it is harder to explain how the system got wiped out in both Samaria and Judea. The same underlying causes - i.e. sieges/war?

02-10-2013, 11:52 AM	#819
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	ברב דברים לא יחדל־פשע

02-10-2013, 11:54 AM	#820
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	More on the 364 day calendar (sorry to the group for using a term that sounds like 'moron'): http://www.academia.edu/523554/The_3...Pseudepigrapha

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.