Freethought & Rationalism Archive

-Jay- · 12-11-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlin

Like Luke 4

14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.
15He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.
16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.
17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him,

21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

So the author of Luke has Jesus quote a few verses from Isaiah, and that proves what, exactly?

regards,

NinJay

Gamera · 12-11-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlin

Like Luke 4

14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.
15He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.
16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.
17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him,

21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Discerning a prophesy in a text is hardly taking it literally. Indeed, it's just the opposite of a literal interpretation.

Buck Laser · 12-11-2007, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Laser

As a Xn, I don't think I ever expected the Bible to be literally true. In fact, it's pretty much self-evident to me that it isn't to be taken literally. On the other hand, there's no doubt in my mind that some of the events described in the Bible did happen as described. It's just that I don't know which ones for certain.

Don't you believe everything that God did in the Bible is true?

That's not really the right question to ask. What God is described as doing, e.g., in persuading the Pharaoh to let the Hebrews go, suggests a much more violent image of God than the one that appears in, for example, the book of Amos. I see it as a growth in understanding of what man's relationship to God is.

All of the acts of God in the Bible were written about by human beings.

I don't know if that answers your question or not, but there it is.

Johnny Skeptic · 12-12-2007, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlin

Like Luke 4

14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.

15 He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.

17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,

19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him,

21 and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

But what evidence do you have that God inspired that?

aa5874 · 12-12-2007, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlin

Like Luke 4

14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.
15He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.
16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.
17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him,

21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Discerning a prophesy in a text is hardly taking it literally. Indeed, it's just the opposite of a literal interpretation.

You call plagiarism "discerning a prophecy in a text". It would appear that the author of Luke merely copied passages of the OT and then claimed some god-man said the same words. The author of Luke appears to be just a plagiarist.

-Jay- · 12-12-2007, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Discerning a prophesy in a text is hardly taking it literally. Indeed, it's just the opposite of a literal interpretation.

You call plagiarism "discerning a prophecy in a text". It would appear that the author of Luke merely copied passages of the OT and then claimed some god-man said the same words. The author of Luke appears to be just a plagiarist.

The author of Luke properly cited Isaiah. Calling that plagiarism is a little strong. Unoriginal, maybe...

regards,

NinJay

Gamera · 12-13-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Discerning a prophesy in a text is hardly taking it literally. Indeed, it's just the opposite of a literal interpretation.

You call plagiarism "discerning a prophecy in a text". It would appear that the author of Luke merely copied passages of the OT and then claimed some god-man said the same words. The author of Luke appears to be just a plagiarist.

Since the OT wasn't copyrighted, I don't think plagarism is a real issue (not to mention the fact that plagarism is a modern western concept).

Like I say, he discerned a prophesy were arguably there isn't one, or where the original meaning is other than what he said it was.

How is this literalism?

aa5874 · 12-13-2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You call plagiarism "discerning a prophecy in a text". It would appear that the author of Luke merely copied passages of the OT and then claimed some god-man said the same words. The author of Luke appears to be just a plagiarist.

Since the OT wasn't copyrighted, I don't think plagarism is a real issue (not to mention the fact that plagarism is a modern western concept).

Like I say, he discerned a prophesy were arguably there isn't one, or where the original meaning is other than what he said it was.

How is this literalism?

The problem for me is not discerning a prophecy that did not exist, but claiming that this Jesus of his spoke about, knew in advanced and fulfilled the prophecy that wasn't there. Maybe deliberate deception is the right word.

Gamera · 12-13-2007, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Since the OT wasn't copyrighted, I don't think plagarism is a real issue (not to mention the fact that plagarism is a modern western concept).

Like I say, he discerned a prophesy were arguably there isn't one, or where the original meaning is other than what he said it was.

How is this literalism?

The problem for me is not discerning a prophecy that did not exist, but claiming that this Jesus of his spoke about, knew in advanced and fulfilled the prophecy that wasn't there. Maybe deliberate deception is the right word.

Maybe, maybe not. What it isn't is literalism, which the OP addresses.

aa5874 · 12-13-2007, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The problem for me is not discerning a prophecy that did not exist, but claiming that this Jesus of his spoke about, knew in advanced and fulfilled the prophecy that wasn't there. Maybe deliberate deception is the right word.

Maybe, maybe not. What it isn't is literalism, which the OP addresses.

So how do you decide that Jesus is a literal figure but what he does is allergoric? How can it be that God is real, but his actions are not to be taken literally?

If the God of Moses is omni everything, then he can literally do everything in the Bible, no matter how bizarre, and so can his Son. If a person begins to claim that the plausible elements of the Bible are most likely literal and the implausible are allergoric, then such person, without factual support, would claimed to know the veracity of every event in the Bible, and this veracity would vary from person to person.

If the God of Moses and his Son did not literally do anything, then the Bible collaspses to nothing but mere fantasy.

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