Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rusting Car Bumper · 10-01-2003, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs

The problem here is that the desire to "free" people from theism is precisely as helpful and rational as the desire to "save" people from atheism. ...

I think I got off topic here. Anyway, I think that there's a lot people on both sides can do to try to dispell stereotypes, but I think the most important thing is to try to be friendly to people, even when they don't expect it. I recommend this strategy to the atheists on the pragmatic grounds that it works, ...(Which is probably, it turns out, because it works.)

Agreed. Wholeheartedly.

That is why I always try to emphasize dialogue as opposed to debate. They are not going away. We are not going away.

DC

Rusting Car Bumper · 10-01-2003, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calzaer
There is NO way to dispel a stereotype.

I think you are taking a shoot from the hip saying a bit too seriously. Many stereotypes which were taken quite seriously are now no longer held in great esteem.

Does the stereotype of African Americans being lazy, and sitting around eating watermelon do anything but piss people off? Go and express that one in public somewhere and then get back to me.

When he says "dispel" he means to move the stereotype to a position where it is widely regarded as bigotry as opposed to truth.

DC

brighid · 10-01-2003, 08:13 AM

Quote:

There is NO way to dispel a stereotype

What DC said ... and of course, acting in a stereotypical fashion really aides the cause of properly educating misinformed people that their prejudicial opinions are wrong! With that approach, you are certainly correct! Even if stereotypes will always be around and stupidly people believe that the color of one's hair actually has any influence on intelligence, or the amount of melanin in one's skin has anything to do with motivation, a propesnity to violence, etc. does not mean that responsible people should not work to rectify those misnomers and making them so socially unacceptable that they are discarded into the trash can (where they belong) with every other archaic, ridiculous notion not based in fact.

It is the fact the there are those who still tolerate and kling to prejudice that such things still exist.

Brighid

Biff the unclean · 10-01-2003, 09:16 AM

So many people on this board are filled with such self doubt. Where did this idea come from that if everybody doesn't like us we must be doing something wrong?
These "RR" people do not learn from observation. They learn from proclamation by their authority figures. Half the threads here are we saying 'look the real world works such & such a way. The checkable facts are so & so." They don't care. The whole evolution and creationism section is based on them not caring what actual proven facts are.

These RR types did not begin to hate Atheists because of anything that Atheists have done. They hate us because their religion instructs them to hate us.
They have not continued to hate us because of the things we are doing. About ever two weeks one of them will start a thread about how Atheists haven't any morals. This is always countered by us saying 'wait we have the statistics. It is an observable fact that Atheist morals are just as good as any Christian's.' Two weeks later there's another immoral Atheist thread, usually by the same people.

They didn't start hating you for how you behave, they haven't continued hating you for how you have behaved. The idea that if you are really nice to them in the future they will change their attitude and then they will like you doesn't follow. You could take over their mortgage, put their kids through college and cure their mother's cancer and they will still want to see you roasting in the pit of Hell.

You are hated by them for who you are, not what you do. Get down on your knees this minute and in tears accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and admit that you are an undeserving sinner and leech--then maybe they will think better of you.

Personally I don't feel the need to be liked by everyone in the world. There are certain people whose disdain I'd take as a compliment.

demoninho · 10-01-2003, 09:23 AM

I think it's a Sodom & Gomorra thing they see themselves in a world filled sin at in which any moment the Lord's wrath could strike down on all of us including them.

Rusting Car Bumper · 10-01-2003, 09:25 AM

Biff,

Its not the extreme that matters. Its the malleable middle which can be influenced by the extremes. You seem to get them confused.

DC

brighid · 10-01-2003, 09:32 AM

Learned behaviors can be unlearned!

I wonder how many lurking theists, who don't post those threads, have been positively and negatively influenced by the behaviors of those of us in here?

I would also say that the majority of people in this country have been taught racial and sexual prejudice. Should the examples not be countered with accurate information because Ma and Pa taught little Jimmy that "niggers" are just lazy bastards sucking off the tit of the "welfare state" or that all homosexuals are sex-crazed pedophiles?

All religious people do not "hate" atheists. Reasonable people, theist or otherwise are influenced by positive and accurate information. We may not be able to bring those on the lunatic fringe back from oblivion, but we would be missing an entirely important group of people - the many more who are moderate and liberal and don't go around hating others simply because they are different.

Brighid

Biff the unclean · 10-01-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalChicken
Biff,

Its not the extreme that matters. Its the malleable middle which can be influenced by the extremes. You seem to get them confused.

DC

It is the extreme that matters. They are the only ones who are causing us a problem. The middle is not gleefully rubbing their hands together in anticipation of Atheists being plunged into the "Lake of Fire." The middle already doesn't hate us. They already don't stereotype us. There is no need to kiss up to them.

Rusting Car Bumper · 10-01-2003, 09:45 AM

Biff,

I see little reason to acknowledge much of what you say. You express the thoughts of others in hyperbolic terms such as "rolling over", "many people on this board are filled with such self doubt", "kiss up to them" and on and on.

Usually these are nothing but gross distortions of the poster you are attempting to comment upon. I see little reason to continue commenting when I would spend most of my time correcting your characterizations of my comments and others comments.

DC

Biff the unclean · 10-01-2003, 09:51 AM

I would also say that the majority of people in this country have been taught racial and sexual prejudice.

I would say just the opposite. I have been nowhere else in the world (and I've managed to get around) where racism and sexual prejudice is such an extreme social taboo as it is in the United States
All religious people do not "hate" atheists.
Nor have we ever been talking about "all" religious people. We have only been talking about the group that does hate us and the reasons that they do. Why you and DC felt the need to change this from the group that we are having a problem with to a group that we are not is beyond me.

10-01-2003, 09:51 AM	#50
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	the art of misdirection I would also say that the majority of people in this country have been taught racial and sexual prejudice. I would say just the opposite. I have been nowhere else in the world (and I've managed to get around) where racism and sexual prejudice is such an extreme social taboo as it is in the United States All religious people do not "hate" atheists. Nor have we ever been talking about "all" religious people. We have only been talking about the group that does hate us and the reasons that they do. Why you and DC felt the need to change this from the group that we are having a problem with to a group that we are not is beyond me.

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10-01-2003, 09:16 AM	#44
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	So many people on this board are filled with such self doubt. Where did this idea come from that if everybody doesn't like us we must be doing something wrong? These "RR" people do not learn from observation. They learn from proclamation by their authority figures. Half the threads here are we saying 'look the real world works such & such a way. The checkable facts are so & so." They don't care. The whole evolution and creationism section is based on them not caring what actual proven facts are. These RR types did not begin to hate Atheists because of anything that Atheists have done. They hate us because their religion instructs them to hate us. They have not continued to hate us because of the things we are doing. About ever two weeks one of them will start a thread about how Atheists haven't any morals. This is always countered by us saying 'wait we have the statistics. It is an observable fact that Atheist morals are just as good as any Christian's.' Two weeks later there's another immoral Atheist thread, usually by the same people. They didn't start hating you for how you behave, they haven't continued hating you for how you have behaved. The idea that if you are really nice to them in the future they will change their attitude and then they will like you doesn't follow. You could take over their mortgage, put their kids through college and cure their mother's cancer and they will still want to see you roasting in the pit of Hell. You are hated by them for who you are, not what you do. Get down on your knees this minute and in tears accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and admit that you are an undeserving sinner and leech--then maybe they will think better of you. Personally I don't feel the need to be liked by everyone in the world. There are certain people whose disdain I'd take as a compliment.

10-01-2003, 09:23 AM	#45
demoninho Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 927	I think it's a Sodom & Gomorra thing they see themselves in a world filled sin at in which any moment the Lord's wrath could strike down on all of us including them.

10-01-2003, 09:25 AM	#46
Rusting Car Bumper Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 4,171	Biff, Its not the extreme that matters. Its the malleable middle which can be influenced by the extremes. You seem to get them confused. DC

10-01-2003, 09:32 AM	#47
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Learned behaviors can be unlearned! I wonder how many lurking theists, who don't post those threads, have been positively and negatively influenced by the behaviors of those of us in here? I would also say that the majority of people in this country have been taught racial and sexual prejudice. Should the examples not be countered with accurate information because Ma and Pa taught little Jimmy that "niggers" are just lazy bastards sucking off the tit of the "welfare state" or that all homosexuals are sex-crazed pedophiles? All religious people do not "hate" atheists. Reasonable people, theist or otherwise are influenced by positive and accurate information. We may not be able to bring those on the lunatic fringe back from oblivion, but we would be missing an entirely important group of people - the many more who are moderate and liberal and don't go around hating others simply because they are different. Brighid

10-01-2003, 09:45 AM	#49
Rusting Car Bumper Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 4,171	Biff, I see little reason to acknowledge much of what you say. You express the thoughts of others in hyperbolic terms such as "rolling over", "many people on this board are filled with such self doubt", "kiss up to them" and on and on. Usually these are nothing but gross distortions of the poster you are attempting to comment upon. I see little reason to continue commenting when I would spend most of my time correcting your characterizations of my comments and others comments. DC

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