Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steve Weiss · 08-05-2011, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Good post Pete, and it should also be understood that the Jesus story was not new. Jesus wasn't the only hero in antiquity that was said to have risen from the dead, or to have had a miraculous birth, for that matter. Krishna miraculously appeared in his mother's womb, and the Avatars of Vishnu were all virgin births as well. The Babylonian god Marduk was born of a virgin. Don't forget Perseus' mother Danae locked away as a young maiden until Zeus lets her have it with a shower of (ahem)gold, impregnating her. And of course Alexander the great, also a virgin birth.

I believe it was Carl Jung that theorized that we (men) want our heros to be born of virgins because of our deep seated hatred for our mother's impurity.:constern01:

The resurrection myth goes back to at least Osiris in Egypt. Could people be gullible and credulous when it comes to religious beliefs? There are so many of these myths that one is spoiled for choice.

Steve Weiss · 08-05-2011, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

To No One In Particular:

What to make of Matthew 28, 16-17? We have an account of Jesus appearing post resurrection to the disciples with the added information that an undisclosed some doubted. (Just Thomas or is one doubter too few to make a some?) Seems like the injection of the doubting disciples serves no apologetic purpose, tends to weaken the claim that the resurrection is evidenced by the appearances. What are we to make of it?

If we were particularly simple minded we might just declare that its all NONSENSE. Or we might wonder whether, assuming there were disciples who thought they had had resurrection experiences, what the manner of those experiences were. We might wonder whether they were visionary experiences, more convincing to some than to others. We might start to wonder whether the disciples experiences were more like that the Apostle Paul had than those narrated in the Gospels. Experiences that would still leave room for doubt in at least some.

It might help to answer the simple minded question "how could they have convinced people that Jesus was RAISED from the dead when the RESURRECTION NEVER really happened?" How is it that roughly a billion people have come to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead when we have excellent reason to think that never happened?

Steve

You have fallen for ad populum.

Juststeve · 08-05-2011, 06:42 AM

Kapy:

I would endorse the view that so many people believe the Christian story because they want to. Christianity is a beautifully constructed meme which is well designed to survive and propagate.

Consider that Christianity posits:

1. There is a state of horrible punishment which we are all doomed to endure when we die, with only one possible escape.

2. The possible escape is through mere belief in the salvic death and resurrection of Jesus which belief not only get you out of Hell but into an eternal glorious afterlife. This is a boon that doesn't even require that you become a suicide bomber or give up pork and shellfish. Its the ultimate get out of jail free card. Its no wonder a lot of people want desperately to believe that.

3. Once you become a believer the meme is highly resistant to re-examination since such is regarded as losing ones faith and perhaps losing salvation. The meme is also very prone to propagate since anyone holding the belief will be anxious to transfer it to friends and kin.

While I agree factually with Jay's comment I don't think government coercion explains the growth and acceptance of the Christian meme. Christianity grew rapidly before Constantine and has remained robust after government compulsion was removed. We need to look to the power of the meme coupled with the tendency of many people to believe what they want to believe to explain the spread and persistence of Christianity.

Steve

Juststeve · 08-05-2011, 06:44 AM

Steven Weiss:

Observing an indisputable fact about the world and wondering how it became the case is not falling for the ad populum fallacy.

Steve

Tristan Scott · 08-05-2011, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Kapy:

I would endorse the view that so many people believe the Christian story because they want to. Christianity is a beautifully constructed meme which is well designed to survive and propagate.

Consider that Christianity posits:

1. There is a state of horrible punishment which we are all doomed to endure when we die, with only one possible escape.

2. The possible escape is through mere belief in the salvic death and resurrection of Jesus which belief not only get you out of Hell but into an eternal glorious afterlife. This is a boon that doesn't even require that you become a suicide bomber or give up pork and shellfish. Its the ultimate get out of jail free card. Its no wonder a lot of people want desperately to believe that.

3. Once you become a believer the meme is highly resistant to re-examination since such is regarded as losing ones faith and perhaps losing salvation. The meme is also very prone to propagate since anyone holding the belief will be anxious to transfer it to friends and kin.

While I agree factually with Jay's comment I don't think government coercion explains the growth and acceptance of the Christian meme. Christianity grew rapidly before Constantine and has remained robust after government compulsion was removed. We need to look to the power of the meme coupled with the tendency of many people to believe what they want to believe to explain the spread and persistence of Christianity.

Steve

It seems to me that the salvation/acceptance of savior part is more Church tradition than actual scripture. IMO the real cornerstone, or bedrock of the Christian faith was the attempt to make the fearful god of the OT into a loving god: John's God is Love. (The idea that God loved humans so much that he would sacrifice his only son to a terrible death for us.) That's why Revelation and even Paul seem so out of touch with the story of the gospels. The story chronicling the teachings of Jesus has been lost to the traditional dogma of the 4th and 5th century church: salvation; the Trinity; the Nicene Creed; all of this stuff has always trumped the teachings of the Jesus figure in the Bible, and the reason was, as has been pointed out upthread, control. Dangling eternal life out there is a powerful control on people as we well know. That's how you get people to fight wars and that's how you get people to fly airplanes into buildings.

Doug Shaver · 08-05-2011, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

How is it that roughly a billion people have come to believe that Jesus was raised from the dead when we have excellent reason to think that never happened?

There seem to be numerous forces, both psychological and social, motivating people to believe things that are not true. We have no reason to think any religious ideas are exempt from any of those forces.

Nor do we have any reason to assume that people having wealth or power are invariably responsible for the application of those forces. We have no reason to assume that in some utopia where all wealth and power were equally distributed, all the people would somehow manage to discover the virtues of freethought and the efficacy of rationalism.

Doug Shaver · 08-05-2011, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Observing an indisputable fact about the world and wondering how it became the case is not falling for the ad populum fallacy.

It may be an indisputable fact that billions believe X. The suggestion that this fact is hard to explain if X is not true is the ad populum fallacy.

Juststeve · 08-05-2011, 07:32 AM

Tristan:

Belief/salvation is in Paul which most think are first century documents. It was Paul who originated the meme to better sell the new religion to pagans.

Steve

Juststeve · 08-05-2011, 07:36 AM

Doug:

Can you point to any place where I said that billions of Christians can't be explained unless Christianity is true. In fact I authored a post that offered and explanation which has nothing to do with the truth of Christianity.

Steve

Huon · 08-05-2011, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well how is it the disciples wanted to PHYSICALLY see the resurrected Jesus when it was NOT necessary in the first place?
<snip>
If Jesus was an ORDINARY man then the resurrection story is complete NONSENSE.

So, we have to demonstrate that Jesus was NOT an ORDINARY man.

His resurrection IS the demonstration.

Some people had a doubt, when this miracle was told to them. They needed some confirmation. Then, first, they were told that some disciples had also doubts. That's very normal, they are told... Look, some disciples [the upper category of christians] had also doubts. Thomas had doubts. BUT, BUT, BUT, these doubts disappeared after some testing.

So, you who had a doubt, either you join Thomas and the disciples, and you are a good christian, or you still have a doubt, and Hell, we cannot do anything for you.

Jesus IS NOT an ORDINARY man.

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08-05-2011, 06:42 AM	#13
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Kapy: I would endorse the view that so many people believe the Christian story because they want to. Christianity is a beautifully constructed meme which is well designed to survive and propagate. Consider that Christianity posits: 1. There is a state of horrible punishment which we are all doomed to endure when we die, with only one possible escape. 2. The possible escape is through mere belief in the salvic death and resurrection of Jesus which belief not only get you out of Hell but into an eternal glorious afterlife. This is a boon that doesn't even require that you become a suicide bomber or give up pork and shellfish. Its the ultimate get out of jail free card. Its no wonder a lot of people want desperately to believe that. 3. Once you become a believer the meme is highly resistant to re-examination since such is regarded as losing ones faith and perhaps losing salvation. The meme is also very prone to propagate since anyone holding the belief will be anxious to transfer it to friends and kin. While I agree factually with Jay's comment I don't think government coercion explains the growth and acceptance of the Christian meme. Christianity grew rapidly before Constantine and has remained robust after government compulsion was removed. We need to look to the power of the meme coupled with the tendency of many people to believe what they want to believe to explain the spread and persistence of Christianity. Steve

08-05-2011, 06:44 AM	#14
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Steven Weiss: Observing an indisputable fact about the world and wondering how it became the case is not falling for the ad populum fallacy. Steve

08-05-2011, 07:32 AM	#18
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Tristan: Belief/salvation is in Paul which most think are first century documents. It was Paul who originated the meme to better sell the new religion to pagans. Steve

08-05-2011, 07:36 AM	#19
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Doug: Can you point to any place where I said that billions of Christians can't be explained unless Christianity is true. In fact I authored a post that offered and explanation which has nothing to do with the truth of Christianity. Steve

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