Andykiwi

Gideon's toilet paper International is quite famous - they keep the hotels and motels in fresh supply.

Sheshbazzar

Quite, although I had in mind the generations of Fundamentalist missionary ministries, and 'KJV onlyist's' organizations that ship(ed) countless tons of their KJV toilet paper to non-English speaking, often illiterate, Third World countries, where quite naturally the natives tend to employ it in the most logical and useful fashion.
(And of course the recipients are thankful, and stress their need to recieve more. Making both parties very happy. )

storytime

Don't forget the long johns. Brrrr it's cold outside.

storytime

Which must indicate that the prophecy has been fulfilled.

FinBak

I would like a rational answer to my question please. Thankyou.

bacht

Well the references start in Genesis, with Jacob's vision of angels ascending and descending a "stairway to heaven" and continue thru to Revelation, which is basically an extended vision of the end of the world. There were people who supposedly saw angels (Abraham) and even God himself (Isaiah, Ezekiel). There are stories about dreams, like Joseph in Egypt and Daniel in Babylon. There was the apparition of the dead Samuel conjured for Saul by the witch of Endor. You can look at the "visions" of the prophets who speak of the Day of God's judgment and the subsequent new age following. In Acts the dying Stephen "sees" God on his throne.

You haven't given us a focus FinBak.

Sheshbazzar

So what is it that you expect for an answer?
The Biblical texts present a variety of 'visions', 'dreams', and 'prophecies', all of which both then and now have always depended upon proper 'interpretation' and an appropriate understanding of the sense, interpretation, and application of the figurative symbology being described.
Many such 'dark sayings of old' arose out of obscure riddles, or involve ancient ideas, symbology, idioms, and word-plays that are utterly foreign and mostly incomprehensible to non-Hebrew peoples.
It is like trying to describe the gift of sight, and the differing values of colors, to a blind person who has never possessed sight. No matter how elaborate and detailed the explanation, the blind person cannot actually 'see' the matter.
The Hebrew language is integral with the Hebrew Scriptures and religion. For gentiles to attempt interpreting concealed 'deep and secret things' of the Scriptures and religion of the Hebrew's, without resorting to interpretation provided by an Hebrew, is an exercise in futility, liable to much self-delusion, and gross error.
(Notice I said 'the Hebrew's' not 'the Jews'....anyone not appreciating and empathising the importance of that distinction is not to be trusted in matters of interpretation)
As a gentile, if you would -in truth- understand these things, you have only two options; Inquire concerning interpretation from a Hebrew with the gift,
OR yourself become a Hebrew.

I have recieved a 'vision', and can 'see' things that have transpired, that are now transpiring, and that yet will transpire.
There is an ensign to all nations in my 'vision', a standard that shall yet be lifted up, and be seen and esteemed of all men, above all the ensigns and standards of the nations.
Can you see what I see? Can you hear what I hear? Do you know what I know?
Or do my words sound like so much foolishness and insane gibberish to you?
IF you were a Hebrew in your heart and mind, you might grasp whereof I speak, but if you stand afar off, you may not as yet understand, but of a certainty, The Day shall come when you shall see with your own eyes, that whereof I now write, before The Time.

aa5874

Now just replace "Hebrew" with some other Nationality or People and you get total confusion, perhaps even Religous Wars.

Visions and Revelations have been used to deceive the gullible all over the world.

"God told me so in a vision" is probably the most succesful con in the history of mankind. Right now billions believe people have visions from some God.

Sheshbazzar

If you replace "Hebrew" with some other nationality or people....
you are no longer at all addressing the realities of the Hebrew religion or the beliefs and hopes of the Hebrew peoples.
If doing so creates total confusion, and perhaps even religious wars, then it is not at all advisable to do so, now is it.

As for the rest, I have written of something yet to come that is not yet seen, nor is yet understood, either by the believing or the unbelieving, wherefore there is no present gain nor reward to be realised.
For me it is entirely enough that what I now announce will come to pass, does come to pass, though I be pushing up daisies by the day that it does.

I have no expectation of receiving any great reward of praise, or respect of men while in this world. But if I maintain my integrity, though I return to the dust, when what I have spoken does (and it most certainly will) come to pass, only then will all come to know the truth, and the extent of my vision.
I have no need that any other man believe or accept my words today.
_ in fact I would pity any such person, to come to grasp such knowledge in this present age, for with the knowledge of those matters of which I write also comes a suffering expectation, and permanent disenchantment and dissatisfaction with the things that now are, and a great burden of sorrow for that which was lost and is presently lacking. This I would not wish to be upon the shoulders of any other.

Yet because there IS a time to every purpose under heaven, these things must needs be presented by someone while it is yet 'today', so that 'tomorrow', in That Day, and only then at the long last, they may be vindicated by their accomplishment.

I did not, and do not claim, to have recieved any 'visions from some (or any) God'.
(although I acknowledge the existence of a Power that causes, and brings forth the existence of all things in their time, term it 'reality', 'nature', or by the everlasting Name)

Nevertheless, I do know what it is that I do know, and I do 'see' what it is that I do 'see', and do understand the significance, implications, and the reality of what it is that I am now the witness and spokesperson for.

Time will indeed tell whether I am only another fraud with an overactive imagination, or speak as one who truly perceived and witnessed to a matter that will come to pass, one affecting all of mankind.

andrewcriddle

IMHO the passage quoted by John Kesler makes Biblical Visions more like dreams than they (mostly) were. Maybe they should be regarded as being what we would call altered states of consciousness.

If, however, you see John's reply as irrelevant to your question, then I'm afraid I really don't see what you are getting at.

Andrew Criddle