Freethought & Rationalism Archive

patcleaver · 10-29-2008, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Maybe if he were writing as you were dictating, like a secretary. But I doubt it would contain very many anglicisms if he were retelling the account later, in his own words. (That is the essence of oral transmission; each performance is a retelling.)

I am fluent in Spanish, and in retelling Spanish stories in English (or vice versa) I tend to automatically turn Spanish idioms into English idioms (or vice versa). For example, if the original Spanish story has something like él tiene veinte años, I automatically translate this as he is twenty years old, not as he has twenty years.

However, if I were slavishly translating a written Spanish exemplar and were perhaps unsure how to render the idiom, I might very well write he has twenty years.

I'm afraid, Ben C, that you should make your linguistic examples easier here. For someone to see the errors arising from the relationship between Hebrew and Greek, they have to understand them.

Andrew's examples of the Greek translator's confusion with the similarly written letters, DALET and RESH, are a good example that Pat should read. The cause of the error is plain: a confusion about Hebrew letters by a Greek translator. No other explanation.

The acrostic psalms is another that is easy to understand and cannot be rendered by the fudge of rendering Hebrew oral tradition. I mentioned three, but there are quite a few, with examples also in Proverbs and Lamentations.

Alliteration in Hebrew is another good possibility. I've given a few examples, but they seem to have been missed. Poetic phrases like tohu wabohu are also easy convincers. They sound like nothing in Greek. In fact all the Hebrew poetry is lost in Greek.

It's gotta be KISS! (No, not decrepit Gene Simmons.)

spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

patcleaver,

could you deal with my post #11 in this thread and Andrew's post #33 in this thread?

Do you also want examples of Hebrew alphabetic acrostics elsewhere in the bible? Try each of the first four chapters of Lamentations, ch.1 and ch.2 having 22 verses and ch.3 having three verses per letter so it has 66 verses.

How do you account for the Hebrew poetry, say in Jeremiah, when there's no poetry in the Greek?

What evidence will make you abandon this theory?

Thanks Spin.

I got no Greek and no Hebrew and no Latin and can't read stuff from a third semester Spanish book without looking stuff up. Yet, I am the only one challenging Matt Giwer's hypotheses over at rational responders.

I do not consider it to be my theory. In fact I am trying to refute it, but I do not want to present any obviously bad arguments especially since, in some cases, it is difficult for me to know whether a linguistic argument is valid or not.

I cannot look at this stuff until late tonight.

spin · 10-29-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patcleaver

I got no Greek and no Hebrew and no Latin and can't read stuff from a third semester Spanish book without looking stuff up. Yet, I am the only one challenging Matt Giwer's hypotheses over at rational responders.

I do not consider it to be my theory. In fact I am trying to refute it, but I do not want to present any obviously bad arguments especially since, in some cases, it is difficult for me to know whether a linguistic argument is valid or not.

I cannot look at this stuff until late tonight.

Why don't you point me to the specific thread over there, as I can't see it on the forum? I'll be happy to test it out for you.

spin

spin · 10-29-2008, 03:11 PM

Don't worry patcleaver, I've just found the thread.

spin

mg01 · 11-07-2008, 01:37 PM

I'm surprised the DH has not come up in this thread. If you hypothesize that the Hebrew text was constructed first in Greek you still have to deal with the same questions that lead to the formation of the DH. Why would Greek authors include multiple versions of the same story? When going from Greek to Hebrew, why translate Theos into multiple Hebrew variants (El, Eloah, Elyon, Elohim, etc...), or Kyrios into YHWH in some places and Adonai in others? Why would these different sections consistently divide into portions that show distinct concerns with geography, people, and theology? Or, that the various portions show a progression of both linguistic stages and theological ideas? What about that fact that particular terms and phrases also line up within theses same divisions? Why do we find archaic terms in Hebrew, some of which are decipherable thanks to analogous terms from Ugarit?

Are we to assume that all these things spontaneously arose when the "original Greek" was used to produce the first Hebrew copy? Or was there a conspiracy on the part of the translators to fool us into thinking there really was a Hebrew tradition behind the "original Greek".

No one bothers to respond to fringe theories because it's generally taken to be a waste of time. However as I am familiar with Matts ravings I too would be interested to see spin respond to them.

spin · 11-07-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mg01

However as I am familiar with Matts ravings I too would be interested to see spin respond to them.

I went over to Rational Responders, where patcleaver had come across the issue, and dealt directly with the proponent, starting here.

spin

mg01 · 11-07-2008, 03:32 PM

From the other thread ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by patcleaver

Matt Giwer seems to be claiming that around 200 BCE, most of the Septuagint was recorded in Greek from Jewish oral tradition, and then later the Jews translated those parts of the Septuagint into Hebrew with some corrections.

In response ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by A_Nony_Mouse

Actually I am saying there was no Jewish religion as we would recognize it until after the Septuagint. The region most likely worshiped both Yahweh and Ashara of which the oldest mention is found in Ugarit. A temple to Ashara existed in Jerusalem until Rome rebuilt the city after the bar Kokbah rebellion. That temple was most likely where the Dome of the Rock exists today as both have/had eight sides. And it would been higher than the Temple to Yahweh else visitors to the latter could look down and see their priests making worshipful love to the priestesses.

So Matt is trolling around on rationalresponders as A_Nony_Mouse?

I'm stating the obvious aren't I?

patcleaver · 11-14-2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mg01

I'm surprised the DH has not come up in this thread. If you hypothesize that the Hebrew text was constructed first in Greek you still have to deal with the same questions that lead to the formation of the DH. Why would Greek authors include multiple versions of the same story? When going from Greek to Hebrew, why translate Theos into multiple Hebrew variants (El, Eloah, Elyon, Elohim, etc...), or Kyrios into YHWH in some places and Adonai in others? Why would these different sections consistently divide into portions that show distinct concerns with geography, people, and theology? Or, that the various portions show a progression of both linguistic stages and theological ideas? What about that fact that particular terms and phrases also line up within theses same divisions? Why do we find archaic terms in Hebrew, some of which are decipherable thanks to analogous terms from Ugarit?

Are we to assume that all these things spontaneously arose when the "original Greek" was used to produce the first Hebrew copy? Or was there a conspiracy on the part of the translators to fool us into thinking there really was a Hebrew tradition behind the "original Greek".

No one bothers to respond to fringe theories because it's generally taken to be a waste of time. However as I am familiar with Matts ravings I too would be interested to see spin respond to them.

very good. Belated thanks for your help.

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10-29-2008, 03:11 PM	#43
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Don't worry patcleaver, I've just found the thread. spin

11-07-2008, 01:37 PM	#44
mg01 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: USA Posts: 197	I'm surprised the DH has not come up in this thread. If you hypothesize that the Hebrew text was constructed first in Greek you still have to deal with the same questions that lead to the formation of the DH. Why would Greek authors include multiple versions of the same story? When going from Greek to Hebrew, why translate Theos into multiple Hebrew variants (El, Eloah, Elyon, Elohim, etc...), or Kyrios into YHWH in some places and Adonai in others? Why would these different sections consistently divide into portions that show distinct concerns with geography, people, and theology? Or, that the various portions show a progression of both linguistic stages and theological ideas? What about that fact that particular terms and phrases also line up within theses same divisions? Why do we find archaic terms in Hebrew, some of which are decipherable thanks to analogous terms from Ugarit? Are we to assume that all these things spontaneously arose when the "original Greek" was used to produce the first Hebrew copy? Or was there a conspiracy on the part of the translators to fool us into thinking there really was a Hebrew tradition behind the "original Greek". No one bothers to respond to fringe theories because it's generally taken to be a waste of time. However as I am familiar with Matts ravings I too would be interested to see spin respond to them.

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