FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-19-2012, 10:48 AM   #281
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

In all fairness there is evidence to suggest that at least some Jews argued it was a one time only tax not a yearly tax:

http://books.google.com/books?id=btS...ime%22&f=false
stephan huller is offline  
Old 03-19-2012, 11:04 AM   #282
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: On the path of knowledge
Posts: 8,889
Default

If the words of The Scriptures are to be taken of any value as to order of such things, the opinions of 'some Jews' speaking in open rebellion and opposition to the Ordained and Authorized Levitical Priesthood, are of no value in determining the rightness of what was done under their Elohim given auspices.

If the Temple Priests and Sanhedrin made any 'Decision' to collect the half-shekel annually then that Decision was their exclusive Elohim-given prerogative to make. No one else's.

This was the workings of that authority vested by YHWH and the THE LAW of Scripture exclusively in them, and not in the opinions of 'some Jew' non-Temple dissidents, that prevails.
Sheshbazzar is offline  
Old 03-19-2012, 11:48 AM   #283
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Auburn ca
Posts: 4,269
Default

If you stuidied temple tax you would know its voluntary

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...m.aspx#Article


Every year, a Jewish man, 20 years old and older, paid a voluntary half shekel Temple tax to the Jerusalem Temple. This tax, instituted by Moses (Ex 30:11–16), was paid in either the Tyrian shekel (for himself and another person) or half-shekel (for only himself) during the Second Temple period (Mishnah Bekhoroth 8:7; Babylonian Talmud Kiddushin 11a).
outhouse is offline  
Old 03-19-2012, 12:13 PM   #284
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

The half-shekel is certainly not voluntary. It is obligatory and is viewed as such by Jews Samariitans and Karaites. Here is the relevant passage in Shekalim (the rabbinic sources consistently call the half-shekel a 'shekel')

Quote:
Although it was ordained that no pledges were to be taken from women, slaves, and minors, if they offered to contribute, their money was accepted. From heathens and Samaritans it was not accepted. Nor were bird-offerings, for men or women afflicted with venereal disease and for women who had recently been confined, accepted; nor sin and guilt offerings. e1 Vowed and voluntary offerings, however, were accepted. e2 The following is the rule: Everything which was vowed as an offering and all voluntary offerings were accepted. Anything not vowed for offering or given voluntarily was not accepted from them (heathens and Samaritans). So it is explicitly declared in Ezra, for it is written [Ezra iv. 3]: "It is not for you and us (both) to build a house unto our God."

The following are obliged to pay a premium (in addition to the half-shekel): Levites, Israelites, proselytes, and freed. men; but not (priests,) women, slaves, and minors. If one pay (the half-shekel) for a priest, woman, slave, or a minor, he is exempt (from paying the premium); if he pay for himself and another, however, he must pay a premium for one. R. Meir says: "(He must pay) two premiums. One who pays a Sela (whole Bible shekel) and receives in return a half (Bible) shekel must pay two premiums."

If one pay for a poor man, for a neighbor, or for a countryman, he is exempt from a premium (because it is charity); if he only advances them the money, he is not exempt. Brothers who (after dividing their inheritance) have their business in common, or partners, when they become obliged to pay a premium, are exempt from cattle-tithe. g1 As long, however, as they must pay cattle-tithe, they are exempt from a premium. How much does the premium amount to? According to R. Meir, to one silver Meah (one twenty-fourth of a shekel); but the sages say, to one-half of a Meah.
Additional gifts could be brought at the same time, as implied by the Targum of 2 Kings 12.4, where a few words are added to a text about voluntary gifts to the Temple so that the first half speaks about the half-shekel and then second about additional contributions.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 03-19-2012, 12:15 PM   #285
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Auburn ca
Posts: 4,269
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
The half-shekel is certainly not voluntary. It is obligatory and is viewed as such by Jews Samariitans and Karaites. Here is the relevant passage in Shekalim (the rabbinic sources consistently call the half-shekel a 'shekel')

Quote:
Although it was ordained that no pledges were to be taken from women, slaves, and minors, if they offered to contribute, their money was accepted. From heathens and Samaritans it was not accepted. Nor were bird-offerings, for men or women afflicted with venereal disease and for women who had recently been confined, accepted; nor sin and guilt offerings. e1 Vowed and voluntary offerings, however, were accepted. e2 The following is the rule: Everything which was vowed as an offering and all voluntary offerings were accepted. Anything not vowed for offering or given voluntarily was not accepted from them (heathens and Samaritans). So it is explicitly declared in Ezra, for it is written [Ezra iv. 3]: "It is not for you and us (both) to build a house unto our God."

The following are obliged to pay a premium (in addition to the half-shekel): Levites, Israelites, proselytes, and freed. men; but not (priests,) women, slaves, and minors. If one pay (the half-shekel) for a priest, woman, slave, or a minor, he is exempt (from paying the premium); if he pay for himself and another, however, he must pay a premium for one. R. Meir says: "(He must pay) two premiums. One who pays a Sela (whole Bible shekel) and receives in return a half (Bible) shekel must pay two premiums."

If one pay for a poor man, for a neighbor, or for a countryman, he is exempt from a premium (because it is charity); if he only advances them the money, he is not exempt. Brothers who (after dividing their inheritance) have their business in common, or partners, when they become obliged to pay a premium, are exempt from cattle-tithe. g1 As long, however, as they must pay cattle-tithe, they are exempt from a premium. How much does the premium amount to? According to R. Meir, to one silver Meah (one twenty-fourth of a shekel); but the sages say, to one-half of a Meah.

ive showed two sources claiming voluntary temple tax



should I find more?
outhouse is offline  
Old 03-19-2012, 12:19 PM   #286
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

I am Jewish. I don't care what Christians say. For every crackpot white person there is the testimony of the fathers:

Quote:
If the poor person lacked the half-shekel, he was required to borrow it or even pawn or sell one of his garments, for the verse (Shemos 30:1 5) states: The rich shall not give more and the poor shall not give less than a half-shekel.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 03-19-2012, 12:23 PM   #287
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

On the 'about' page of the organization from which you cite that information: http://www.biblearchaeology.org/about/

Quote:
To provide information to the Christian community and the general public by the most effective means available on the subject of Biblical archaeology and the creation/evolution issues. This information is to be obtained from original research and fieldwork, and the research and fieldwork done by others outside the organization. This information disseminated and the activities of the organization shall be for the purpose of:

Demonstrating the historical reliability of the Bible
Resolving apparent conflicts between the findings of archaeology and science, and the Bible
Illuminating and enhancing understanding of the Biblical text
Edifying the Christian Church by encouraging a deeper knowledge of, greater appreciation for, and stronger faith in the Bible through knowledge and correct interpretation of the findings from archaeology and science
Making Biblical truth applicable and useful to daily Christian life and witness
Propagating the Christian faith by encouraging faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and yielding to Him as Lord, whenever and wherever such opportunity occurs
Exemplifying the Christian faith by word and deed
I have noticed you tend to draw information from Christian apologists. I'm fine with a believer who does so to found his faith. But what perplexes is me is Atheist symbol beside your name. Why are you consistently borrowing from Christian apologists?
stephan huller is offline  
Old 03-19-2012, 12:41 PM   #288
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

I have never had sex with a Samaritan woman (there are only 350 in the world and of those only about 200 are age appropriate) nevertheless I am very intimate what their tradition as well. They actually have two week called Simmot afsa (Passover) and Simmot assakkot (Tabernacles) which is the time when the calendar for the next six months is distributed by the high priest or his assistant - the people pay on this occasion the "ransom" of Exod 30:11-16 - as an annual poll tax at this time. It is yearly and it is certainly obligatory.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 03-19-2012, 03:45 PM   #289
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Auburn ca
Posts: 4,269
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
On the 'about' page of the organization from which you cite that information: http://www.biblearchaeology.org/about/

Quote:
To provide information to the Christian community and the general public by the most effective means available on the subject of Biblical archaeology and the creation/evolution issues. This information is to be obtained from original research and fieldwork, and the research and fieldwork done by others outside the organization. This information disseminated and the activities of the organization shall be for the purpose of:

Demonstrating the historical reliability of the Bible
Resolving apparent conflicts between the findings of archaeology and science, and the Bible
Illuminating and enhancing understanding of the Biblical text
Edifying the Christian Church by encouraging a deeper knowledge of, greater appreciation for, and stronger faith in the Bible through knowledge and correct interpretation of the findings from archaeology and science
Making Biblical truth applicable and useful to daily Christian life and witness
Propagating the Christian faith by encouraging faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and yielding to Him as Lord, whenever and wherever such opportunity occurs
Exemplifying the Christian faith by word and deed
I have noticed you tend to draw information from Christian apologists. I'm fine with a believer who does so to found his faith. But what perplexes is me is Atheist symbol beside your name. Why are you consistently borrowing from Christian apologists?

In this case I just did a search for voluntary temple tax and posted what came up, I knew it from past work.

a few months ago i was in a long thread regarding taxation and took the mandatory stance, and was presented with voluntary information. If im not mistaken there is scripture to back this as well.

I could care less either way, it doesnt make or break my case for a anti taxation teacher HJ at all. Its pretty clear in scripture. Im not bothered by the lack of refference in scripture for two reasons, the roman audience. And the fact all jews were aware or the hatred for roman taxation and it was common knowledge amd didnt need to be taught.
outhouse is offline  
Old 03-19-2012, 03:48 PM   #290
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Auburn ca
Posts: 4,269
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
I have never had sex with a Samaritan woman (there are only 350 in the world and of those only about 200 are age appropriate) nevertheless I am very intimate what their tradition as well. They actually have two week called Simmot afsa (Passover) and Simmot assakkot (Tabernacles) which is the time when the calendar for the next six months is distributed by the high priest or his assistant - the people pay on this occasion the "ransom" of Exod 30:11-16 - as an annual poll tax at this time. It is yearly and it is certainly obligatory.

there was a list of taxation, and how the jews were taxed. its a amazing list very deep with ways they extorted money from judaism and kept them in extreme poverty, while the Saducees gained wealth by getting in bed with romans.
outhouse is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:28 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.