Iasion

Nestor the wise.
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Nestor.html

Sherlock Holmes

Gandalf

Dumbledor


- Iasion

Toto

You've lost me there. Mystics operating within the realm of the will? demanding belief and obedience? This makes no sense.

jgibson000

Not only that, but there's no defense, as their should be, of the claim that Jesus was a/the mystic, let alone a definition of what a mystic is and how one's being a mystic is, as "no robots" (sheesh, these monikers!) seems to think, exclusive of one's being at the same time a social critic, prophet, reformer, etc.

Jeffrey Gibson

No Robots

My real name is Barrett Pashak. You can call me anything you like. Maybe you should call me Johnny One-note: Read Brunner's book!

Didymus

There's not much "Christianity" in either GThomas or Q. The use of "Jesus said..." to introduce sayings does not by itself constitute Christianity! I have a hunch that Q was really just a collection of popular aphorisms that were put into Jesus' mouth by Matthew and Luke.

"Didn't believe Jesus was crucified"? Why... that's heresy!

Was it the Nestorians who believed Simon of Cyrene took Jesus' place on the cross and that he sneaked off to India? No, neither that group nor that idea figures into my scenario. I'll try to give it as little thought as possible.

(Hmmm. How does crucifixion-less Christianity fit into the German Radical scheme that you seem so fond of?)

On the other hand, I will have to think more about the roles of Q and Thomas. "VMJ" is not yet a fully formed hypothesis. It may never be one.

I dunno, to tell you the truth. Ask Dan Brown; he knows all the experts on "symbology."

In any case, crucifixion is pervasive in Paul and the climactic event in all four gospels. To non-Christians, crucifixion was considered to be a shameful form of execution, so early Christians didn't flaunt the symbol. I would guess that it entered Christian public iconography around the time of Constantine. If you recall, C's mom Helena is supposed to have searched for and found the "True Cross" during her pilgrimage to Palestine. I would guess that the image became fashionable at that point.

Surely you're not suggesting that the crucifixion didn't become important to Christianity until then Early Christian literature is full of it.

Didymus

jakejonesiv

Thanks for the info!

Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

King Solomon

Jake Jones IV

Didymus

I think we have to make a distinction between the crucifixion "event," Paul's iconic crucified savior, and the Passion narratives in the gospels.

Paul didn't give us such an account. Nonetheless, he did preach Christ crucified, a crucified savior. The idea of a rejected and humiliated savior had roots in the Wisdom tales; there seem to have been other ancient sources as well. Those legends may well have had a role in the response to the crucifixion. And, along with Hebrew scripture, they may have been used by Mark in creating the Passion narrative.

But the fact that there were such antecedents shouldn't lead us to presume that Christianity didn't have its inspiration in a contemporaneous crucifixion.

Didymus

jakejonesiv

That is special pleading.
GThomas represents a version of Christianity that does not conform to your assumption of the alleged crucifixtion as essential. Please consider that many of the sayings have parallels in the New Testament.

Many of the liberal scholars, like Burton Mac, who support an HJ do so on the basis of the alleged Kingdom preacher in Q. Now, I do not know whether Q existed or not (i tend to doubt it), but if it did, then it represents Christian communities where the crucifixtion crucifiction crucifixion was either unknown or not considered very important.

The very richness and diversity of early Christian belief tells against the "one source" theory of some unknown guy getting crucified.

OK! That is a reasonable approach. I am interested to see where this line of inquiry leads. I like your approach of "thinking outside the box."

Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

Hi Didymus,

If the last line were changed as below, I would agree with it.

But the fact that there were such antecedents shouldn't lead us to presume that Christianity either did or didn't have its inspiration in a contemporaneous crucifixion.

Jake Jones IV