Gamera

[QUOTE=noah]Well, you got that right, Jesus overturned the Old Testament. We're in agreement about something.

Doug Shaver

He is also quoted as saying he wasn't going to do that.

Either he contradicted himself, or the people who wrote about him didn't really know what he really said. I suspect the latter. I suspect they had no real knowledge about him.

noah

[QUOTE=Gamera]The only problem Gamera is that we're not in agreement.

Tell me where in your God's perfect and eternal laws is there any mention of Jesus?

Tell me how Jews, who still believe in the so-called Old testament, missed the fact that Jesus overturned their scriptures.

Tell me how Jesus overturned the scriptures if Jesus and Yahweh are the same being (John 10:30 - see also doctrine of the Trinity) and God never changes (Malachi 3:6)?

Tell me what Jesus thought he was talking about when he said he issued a new law which was in fact an old law?

GakuseiDon

I think Paul meant that treating your enemy well will embarrass him. I think that because at the time Proverbs was written, they didn't appear to believe in a Hell of burning coals, so it must have been an expression at one stage, probably indicating embarrassment. (Several webpages say that there was an old Egyptian practice where someone wanting to be forgiven put a plate on their head and put coal embers on it -- I couldn't find a primary source anywhere for this though). AFAIK Paul doesn't talk about Hell in terms of "burning coals", so I suspect that he is using it as an expression.

mountainman

Firstly, the inference that there was a jesus as described
in the literature assembled in the fourth century by Eusebius,
is summarily dealt with by Julian also writing in the fourth
century who says, and I quote:

Secondly, Philo lived c.20BCE-40CE, and Josephus
both date the Essenes to the period of the 2nd century BCE.
This is two hundred years prior to the date of the appearance
of the new god according to the fabrication of the Galilaeans.

Therefore the precedent of "loving your enemies" existed
on the planet before the first century BCE. Eusebius used
this precedent in trying to establish a connection between
the Essenes (or Therapeutae) and "the fictitious tribe of
christians". He certainly used their wisdom sayings, which
are found in both Philo and Josephus, but you will have to
confirm this with your own eyes.



Pete Brown

EthnAlln

I wish I could remember the author of the book I read 50 years ago. What has stuck in my mind is his mentioning that most of the Sermon on the Mount was found in the teachings of the Essene Teacher of Righteousness, who was crucified around 100 BCE. Anybody got a source for this?

Paul Kurtz (in "The Transcendental Temptation") points out that "Christian" could easily have meant merely someone who believed in a Messiah (the Hebrew equivalent of Christ), not necessarily a follower of Jesus of Nazareth. Messiahs have seldom been rare on this earth, and there could have been many rivals making the same claim among the scattered Jewish communities of the first century. For that reason, it's difficult to untangle how much general "Messiah lore" gradually accreted around the biography of Jesus.