fjripit

Salieri,

If someone told you that your children were the offspring of some other mother and needed to be returned, what kind of proof would you require and accept before you agreed to return the children to the proper mother?

The purpose of this question is meant to illustrate that evidence has a qualitative aspect and that the burden of proof belongs to the person making the charge that your kids are not yours.

Re-mapping that argument to this forum, it appears that you are the one playing the role of the person making the charge in the above example. See?

Now, the case of the mis-assigned babies would be a serious charge and a signficant quality of proof would need to be evaluated by some thoughtful, knowledgeable, and objective entity which does not have an interest in the outcome, but only for an accurate determination beyond a reasonable doubt. Certainly, both you and the accuser would likely be implicitly biased for a particular outcome in this case and would welcome this intercession to ensure that a wrong decision is not put forth.

Now, given the much more serious matter (eternal consequences) of whether Jesus existed, I would expect that the weight of the evidence would have to be sufficiently evaluated by thoughtful, knowledgeable, and objective people before any credence could be placed on a decision of this magnitude.

To date, given all that is now known about how the world works, human psychology, history of religions, theory of evolution (vs. the hypothesis of Intelligent Design), etc., etc., the evidence does not support a belief that Jesus existed.

atechnie

Well: you don't have any evidence that I'm not God. Why don't you take my words seriously even when you have no evidence that I'm not the true God?

-atechnie

Salieri

Which post?

Salieri

Excuse me? This is probably the most ridiculous response yet. You have shown me in a Myriad of ways that you're not God! You have made contradictory statements, have not walked on water, have not raised the dead, & have done nothing supernatural to show that you are God. Again, God, by definitions is supernatural NOT natural or he wouldn't be God. Until you show me that everything you say is the truth, & that you have supernatural powers, I would be a fool to say you're God. But Jesus HAS done all these things. And the only explanation you have to say he hasn't is; "because i say so." So since you have not shown me you have supernatural powers & Jesus has, then is there ANY logical reason that should I believe you?

newtype_alpha

You're wrong. Yes he has! I've seen him do it. I can give you the entire story of how he did it too, and I can even give you a list of five hundred people who not only saw him walk on water, but put his hand on the hull of a submarine and turned it into a humpback whale which he used to feed sarving children in Sri Lanka. Furthermore, I know for a fact that atechnie is the son of God and has come from Asgard to save us from the microscopic Thetans who infest our bodies and cause delusions in our minds.

Do you believe me? Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, right? If you don't beleive me, it must be because the Thetans are deluding you. I can give you hundreds of witnesses and a mountain of evidence to prove that atechnie is the true God of the universe. Why don't you believe he is who he says he is? What is wrong with you?

But Salieri, atechnie has done all these things too. I told you, I've seen him do it! And you have no evidence that he didn't do these things, do you? You have no evidence that atechnie is not God! Jesus hasn't shown us any supernatural powers, but atechnie has! Why don't you believe me?

Salieri, I can show you TONS of evidence that atechnie is the son of God, and futhermore is the savior of all mankind! It is so obvious that if you don't believe atechnie is who he says he is, you will be die in your Thetans

Queen of Swords

So did Jesus. He contradicted the Old Testament, he contradicted himself and he contradicted common sense.

Is it necessary for someone to walk on water before they are recognized as a god? If so, when did God the Father walk on water? I'd also like to see the holy spirit skip across the surface of a lily pond before I recognize it as a god.

How do you know for sure that he hasn't raised the dead? Why do you not take atechnie's words seriously even when you have no evidence that he's lying?

The same thing applies to the god of the bible. When he does something supernatural to show us that he's god, I'll be a little more likely to believe that he exists.

According to a book. Do you expect us to believe something merely because it's in a published novel?

I ask the same question regarding the claims of christian proselytizers.

Queen of Swords

LOL, it's not going to happen, Salieri. You know why? Because I haven't yet come across a follower of the christian god who could outwit me, and many of those followers have created their god in their own image and likeness.

On a more discussive note, though, why does he feel the need to outwit anyone? Surely all he has to do, if he exists, is make his existence clear to me and then explain the contradictions and absurdities in the bible that caused me to become an atheist in the first place.

Angrillori

Hey Salieri, this got lost on the preious page, and I think it's important that we get it out in the open right away.

Do you think that this might be the problem we're having here:

You say that we have no reason to say Jesus [/b]wasn't[/b] who he said he was.

We say that you have no reason to say Jesus was who the bible says he was.

It kind of boils down to two different concepts:

Innocent (of deceit) until proven guilty.
vs.
Don't believe everything you see on TV.


Can you see where these two might come into conflict? Do you think that's where the trouble is? If you could let me know what you think of this, and why you think that we should not extend the same skepticism to one man's claims as to another man's claims, that would be great! Thanks again.

For a twist on this discussion, ask yourself:

How would a habitual liar answer the question:
"Are you a liar?"

atechnie

I can't wait.

Like what?

You know this? How?

So, God HAS to do supernatural things? What happened to free will? If God does supernatural things and shows you that He's God, doesn't that mean that He's violating your free will?

Or - wait - if He isn't violating your free will if He does something like that, and He's omni-benevolent, then why doesn't He do something like that and make everyone a Christian? That way everybody would be saved.

That doesn't mean that He has to do supernatural things. There's no need whatever for him to do that. I can be a very rich person and still ride to college in a bus every day. Just because I ride a bus doesn't mean that I'm not a rich person. See the difference?

Jesus did this?

And why should I do this? I'm God - not your friendly neighborhood woman determined to save everybody.

I do - I know exactly what you're doing right now...it's just that I don't go around announcing my supernatural powers ('cause I see no reason to).

Nope.

There's no more logical reason to believe that Jesus is God than that I'm God. That's my whole point.

Queen of Swords: It's a "she" dammit.

-atechnie

Avatar

Why shouldn't I "antagonize" those who insist on trying to pass laws that will affect me that are based on their ideas about an old book? Why shouldn't I mock the people who claim to speak for God and constantly reiterate their own prejeduces? Why shouldn't I express disbelief when someone tells me that someone walked on water, raised the dead, exterminated almost all of humanity, and designed thew universe for our sole use? Why shoudn't I be suspicious of someone who tells me a story featuring a talking snake?

If all that is mocking Jesus, then call me a mocker.