Jehanne

I don't care! As a former Catholic, I read Denzinger's Sources of Catholic Dogma from "cover to cover." I fully understand both the modern and the medieval concept of faith, which ranges from de fide (that which must be believed under pain of heresy and excommunication) to that which is theological error (which could result in censure and punishment) to that which is theological opinion. The Magisterium of the Medieval Church never, ever repudiated the pre-Nicene teaching of a flat earth. Never, ever, ever, not one paragraph, not one sentence among the countless thousands was ever uttered either for or against that hypothesis. This situation was in stark contrast to Galileo, where a de fide pronouncement was made, one that said that the Sun went around the Earth!

WishboneDawn

I was thinking something similar.

I don't think it's going to make a dent in aa5874's approach or thinking but heck, I'm learning quite a bit!

Jehanne

You need to read more of Aquinas' Summa, for he also states,

"As stated above (Objection 1), a new edition of the symbol becomes necessary in order to set aside the errors that may arise. Consequently to publish a new edition of the symbol belongs to that authority which is empowered to decide matters of faith finally, so that they may be held by all with unshaken faith. Now this belongs to the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff, "to whom the more important and more difficult questions that arise in the Church are referred," as stated in the Decretals [Dist. xvii, Can. 5. Hence our Lord said to Peter whom he made Sovereign Pontiff (Luke 22:32): "I have prayed for thee," Peter, "that thy faith fail not, and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren." The reason of this is that there should be but one faith of the whole Church, according to 1 Cor. 1:10: "That you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you": and this could not be secured unless any question of faith that may arise be decided by him who presides over the whole Church, so that the whole Church may hold firmly to his decision. Consequently it belongs to the sole authority of the Sovereign Pontiff to publish a new edition of the symbol, as do all other matters which concern the whole Church, such as to convoke a general council and so forth." (Summa Theologiae, II, II, Q.1, A. 10)

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3001.htm

The Popes never issued a de fide pronoucement on the question of the geometry of the earth, neither affirmations, nor condemnations. On the question of the Earth's place in the Cosmos, they did issue a de fide prouncement:

"We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare, that thou, the said Galileo, by the things deduced during this trial, and by thee confessed as above, hast rendered thyself vehemently suspected of heresy by this Holy Office, that is, of having believed and held a doctrine which is false, and contrary to the Holy Scriptures, to wit: that the Sun is the centre of the universe, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the Earth moves and is not the centre of the universe: and that an opinion may be held and defended as probable after having been declared and defined as contrary to Holy Scripture; and in consequence thou hast incurred all the censures and penalties of the Sacred Canons, and other Decrees both general and particular, against such offenders imposed and promulgated. From the which We are content that thou shouldst be absolved, if, first of all, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, thou dost before Us abjure, curse, and detest the above-mentioned errors and heresies and any other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church, after the manner that We shall require of thee."

Ita pronunciamus nos Cardinalis infrascripti.

F. Cardinalis de Asculo.
G. Cardinalis Bentivolius
D. Cardinalis de Cremona.
A. Cardinalis S. Honuphri.
B. Cardinalis Gypsius.
F. Cardinalis Verospius.
M. Cardinalis Ginettus.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1630galileo.html

Cege

Did the Popes ever issue a de fide pronouncement correcting the one condemning Galileo? If so, I'd like to read what it says.

Jehanne

Pope Urban VIII approved and signed the declaration of condemnation against Galileo that was issued by the Holy Office in 1633. At the time and for centuries before, such declarations were believed to be infallible, that is, guided by God himself. Aquinas and all the theologians who are cited above as holding to a spherical earth believed this, that is, the Pope, alone or with his bishops, could not err. Of course, they could, and the Church had to acknowledge that fact, which led to the First Vatican Council under Pope Pius IX which fabricated the "dogma" of Papal Infallibility, with the Pope's approval, of course!

GakuseiDon

Then, if Aquinas believed that the Church speaks "the same thing" AND he wrote that the earth was a sphere, isn't this evidence that the Church believed the same? Perhaps there was a memo issued by the Church on this topic, but it is lost to time.

Chili

This situation was in stark contrast to Galileo, where a de fide pronouncement was made, one that said that the Sun went around the Earth! [/QUOTE]


It is a matter of perspective. It is an opinion held by Catholics similar to the wafer being the body of Christ, which is true indeed but only for Catholics who are the centre of the universe . . . once they are the centre of the universe. At this time the sun does revolve around them and the wafer is also is the body of Christ. Once there, the earth has proved itself to be flat and the light of common day just another illusion because Christ is the light of the world . . . or bats would not be able to navigate except as the body of Christ.

It is a new world, dear reader, wherein the old world has passed away and even the sea is no longer. Once the sea is gone you wil have soul left and this is when Rome becomes the light of the world because the old world just ended in time = no full cirlce on a flat earth!

Jehanne

No, Aquinas was a theologian, and recognized himself as such! He believed in Papal Primacy, that is, that the sole and final authority to interpret "the Scriptures" rested with the Pope and those bishops who were in union with him:

"As Augustine says (Ep. xliii) and we find it stated in the Decretals (xxiv, qu. 3, can. Dixit Apostolus): "By no means should we accuse of heresy those who, however false and perverse their opinion may be, defend it without obstinate fervor, and seek the truth with careful anxiety, ready to mend their opinion, when they have found the truth," because, to wit, they do not make a choice in contradiction to the doctrine of the Church. Accordingly, certain doctors seem to have differed either in matters the holding of which in this or that way is of no consequence, so far as faith is concerned, or even in matters of faith, which were not as yet defined by the Church; although if anyone were obstinately to deny them after they had been defined by the authority of the universal Church, he would be deemed a heretic. This authority resides chiefly in the Sovereign Pontiff. For we read [Decret. xxiv, qu. 1, can. Quoties]: "Whenever a question of faith is in dispute, I think, that all our brethren and fellow bishops ought to refer the matter to none other than Peter, as being the source of their name and honor, against whose authority neither Jerome nor Augustine nor any of the holy doctors defended their opinion." Hence Jerome says (Exposit. Symbol [Among the supposititious works of St. Jerome]): "This, most blessed Pope, is the faith that we have been taught in the Catholic Church. If anything therein has been incorrectly or carelessly expressed, we beg that it may be set aright by you who hold the faith and see of Peter. If however this, our profession, be approved by the judgment of your apostleship, whoever may blame me, will prove that he himself is ignorant, or malicious, or even not a catholic but a heretic." (Summa Theologica II II, Q. 11, A. 2)

Jehanne

You are a heretic:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfoath.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ADTU.HTM

:devil1:

Chili

It is a matter of perspective. It is an opinion held by Catholics similar to the wafer being the body of Christ, which is true indeed but only for Catholics who are the centre of the universe . . . once they are the centre of the universe. At this time the sun does revolve around them and the wafer is also is the body of Christ. Once there, the earth has proved itself to be flat and the light of common day just another illusion because Christ is the light of their world . . . or bats would not be able to navigate except as the body of Christ.

It is a new world, they hold, wherein the old world has passed away and even the sea is no longer. Once the sea is gone there will be no soul left and this is when Rome becomes the light of the world because the old world just ended in time. To be sure, there is no thing as coming full cirlce in life on earth which therefore must be flat.