Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-28-2009, 07:28 AM

Arians - as in the vandal traditions of Spain and North Africa.

bacht · 07-28-2009, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Would someone kindly explain why xianity is not just a bastardised form of Greek tragedy?

As I understand it (many years since I was in university) tradedy is a specific dramatic form: an inverted U narrative

hero starts from nothing -> rises to greatness -> declines to nothing

Technically Satan is the character that fits this arc in the Christian mythology

Jesus is the opposite (comic form): starts in Heaven, descends to earth, re-ascends to Heaven.

avi · 07-28-2009, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

But why is arianism treated as a heresy and not as paganism? Interestingly an Orthodox xian told me the Islamic conquests were primarily in Arian areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Are you sure he didn't mean Monophysite areas ?

Pete rejoined by suggesting that Arius was a pagan, not a Christian. In response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is no evidence to support this "suggestion." And it is very wrong. If Arius were a pagan, the Christians would not have accused him of heresy.

From Wikipedia's article:

Quote:

Of all the various disagreements within the Christian Church, the Arian controversy has held the greatest force and power of theological and political conflict, with the possible exception of the Protestant Reformation.

My view: first: Arianism, and the battle against it, are both critically important to an understanding of the origin and evolution of both christianity's many sects, and the elaboration of Islam. Therefore, it would be an error, in my view, to contemplate "forbidding" discussion on this board, regarding ANY aspect of Arianism, including, (especially!) Pete's noteworthy, albeit heretical, stance that Arius was not a Christian.
Second: With regard to Andrew's excellent question whether Islam arose NOT in geographic areas associated primarily with belief in the validity of Arius arguments against the Roman Church's orthodox position, but rather in areas associated with belief in Monophysitism

Quote:

(from the Greek monos meaning 'one, alone' and physis meaning 'nature'), or Monophysiticism, is the Christological position that Christ has only one nature (human-that-evolved-into-divine), as opposed to the Chalcedonian position which holds that Christ maintains two natures, one divine and one human.

This wikipedia article distinguishes monophysitism from Nestorianism--two separate natures: Jesus the man, and the divine Logos, i.e. again the Greek Tragedy influence.
To my perhaps overly simplistic view, ALL of these ideas from the third and fourth centuries are a product of the confusion in the contradictory claims of the gospels in the New Testament. I prefer to look to Constantine's ACTION, rather than contradictory bits of heavily redacted, fifteen hundred year old parchment.

Constantine, not knowing the birthdate of the mythical Jesus, assigned him one. He assigned him the SECOND most important holiday of the Pagan calendar, i.e. the winter solstice. Constantine saved the MOST important holiday of the pagan calendar, for John the Baptist, and not so coincidentally, in my opinion, Islam ALSO considers John the Baptist and Jesus as mere PROPHETS, not gods, or son of gods.

I argue then, based on Constantine's action, not words, that at the time of Constantine, many "christians" believed that Jesus was only a man, not a god, i.e. a human prophet, not a divine entity capable of destruction by mere humans. I think that the notion of Jesus as God came later, after, or perhaps during Constantine's rule.

Arius position is simply logical. How can the offspring of any entity, even a computer virus, be considered equal in age to that of the progenitor? Obviously, to be considered "offspring", there must have been a time when the parent cell, or organism existed, but the progeny did not. Arius' influence extended well beyond Syria, Arabia, Turkey, Iraq and Iran--i.e. conquest areas by Islam. The Germanic tribes, in Northern Europe, subsequent home of the Protestant reformation, also accepted Arius' perspective. Even Constantine's son, a future emperor himself, accepted the validity of Arius position--maybe he looked in the mirror and understood that as an emperor's son, his duration of existence, at that moment in time, was shorter than his father's. To me, it is simply the pinnacle of stupidity to insist that Jesus is both the "son" of God, but concurrently also God himself, and therefore, a creature that has existed equally long as God, but longer than the age of the universe, since God created the universe.

Of course, if one believes in miracles and omnipotent supernatural creatures, why shouldn't such entities defy logic, while concurrently defying gravity. The real "tragedy" here, is the failure of the human species to comprehend the simplest notions of logic.

DCHindley · 07-28-2009, 12:01 PM

Don't forget that the protagonist in a tragedy always has a "tragic flaw" that causes his downfall. This is usually "hubris" or pride. This does not seem to fit the Christian understanding of Jesus' life.

And yes, comedy often emphasizes the overcoming of seemingly hopeless odds, a triumph of sorts, which fits the Jesus of Christian theology very well.

DCH
(taking my union mandated break, boss!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Would someone kindly explain why xianity is not just a bastardised form of Greek tragedy?

As I understand it (many years since I was in university) tradedy is a specific dramatic form: an inverted U narrative

hero starts from nothing -> rises to greatness -> declines to nothing

Technically Satan is the character that fits this arc in the Christian mythology

Jesus is the opposite (comic form): starts in Heaven, descends to earth, re-ascends to Heaven.

Clivedurdle · 07-28-2009, 01:11 PM

The links I have above about tragedy use a general term tragedy to include comedy as a sub category - the point is a story about the relationships between the gods and humans - exactly what the Illiad is - and arguably we are looking at riffs of this, probably with strong links to Alexandria.

And I thought Constantine was arian and he said to his xian bishops on his death bed - you better be right.

Was he not baptised on his death bed?

Clivedurdle · 07-28-2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Bicameralism (psychology)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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In psychology, bicameralism is a hypothesis which argues that the human brain once assumed a state known as a bicameral mind in which cognitive functions are divided between one part of the brain which appears to be "speaking", and a second part which listens and obeys.
The term was coined by psychologist Julian Jaynes, who presented the idea in his 1976 book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, wherein he made the case that a bicameral mentality, that is to say a mental state in which there are two distinct sections of consciousness, was the normal and ubiquitous state of the human mind as recently as 3000 years ago. He used governmental bicameralism to metaphorically describe such a state, in which the experiences and memories of the right hemisphere of the brain are transmitted to the left hemisphere via auditory hallucinations. This mental model was replaced by the conscious mode of thought, which Jaynes argues is grounded in the acquisition of metaphorical language. The idea that language is a necessary component of subjective consciousness and more abstract forms of thinking has been gaining acceptance in recent years, with proponents such as Daniel Dennett, William H. Calvin, Merlin Donald, John Limber, Howard Margolis, and Jose Luis Bermudez.[1]

[edit] Jaynes' case for bicameralism

“ At one time, human nature was split in two, an executive part called a god, and a follower part called a man. Neither part was Consciously aware.[2] ” According to Jaynes, ancient people in the bicameral state would experience the world in a manner that has similarities to that of a modern-day schizophrenic. Rather than making conscious evaluations in novel or unexpected situations, the person would hallucinate a voice or "god" giving admonitory advice or commands, and obey these voices without question; one would not be at all conscious of one's own thought processes per se. Others have argued that this state of mind is recreated in members of cults.[3]
In his 1976 work The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, Julian Jaynes proposed that human brains existed in a bicameral state until as recently as 3000 years ago. Jaynes builds a case for this hypothesis by citing evidence from many diverse sources including historical literature. He took an interdisciplinary approach, drawing data from many different fields.[4]
Jaynes asserts that until roughly the times written about in Homer's Iliad, humans did not generally have the self-awareness characteristic of consciousness as most people experience it today. Rather, Jaynes argued that the bicameral individual was guided by mental commands believed to be issued by external "gods"—the commands which were so often recorded in ancient myths, legends and historical accounts; these commands were however emanating from individuals' own minds. This is exemplified not only in the commands given to characters in ancient epics but also the very muses of Greek mythology which "sang" the poems: Jaynes argues that while later interpretations see the muses as a simple personification of creative inspiration, the ancients literally heard muses as the direct source of their music and poetry.
Jaynes inferred that these "voices" came from the right brain counterparts of the left brain language centres—specifically, the counterparts to Wernicke's area and Broca's area. These regions are somewhat dormant in the right brains of most modern humans, but Jaynes noted that some studies show that auditory hallucinations correspond to increased activity in these areas of the brain.[4]
For example, he asserts that, in the Iliad and sections of the Old Testament, no mention is made of any kind of cognitive processes such as introspection, and he argues that there is no apparent indication that the writers were self-aware. According to Jaynes, the older portions of the Old Testament (such as the Book of Amos) have little or none of the features of some later books of the Old Testament (such as Ecclesiastes) as well as later works such as Homer's Odyssey, which show indications of a profoundly different kind of mentality—an early form of consciousness.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicamer...8psychology%29

mountainman · 07-28-2009, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

My view: first: Arianism, and the battle against it, are both critically important to an understanding of the origin and evolution of both christianity's many sects, and the elaboration of Islam. Therefore, it would be an error, in my view, to contemplate "forbidding" discussion on this board, regarding ANY aspect of Arianism, including, (especially!) Pete's noteworthy, albeit heretical, stance that Arius was not a Christian.

Thanks for an open indication towards objective discussions avi.

Is it heretical to suggest that the Dalai Lama was a Chinese Revolutionary?
It is reasonable to consider that the Dalai Lama fled Tibet with Mao's forces after him IMO as did Arius flee Alexandria and Nicaea with Constantine's forces after him. That gives us no right to pronounce the Dalai Lama a Chinese Revolutionary. Nor Arius a "christian" albeit that the 4th and 5th century "christian propaganda" claims this to be the case.

However consider if the Mao Government controlled the world and the media, the propaganda that they would write up as history would be along the lines that there was no resistance in the rightful occupation of Tibet, and that the Dalai Lama who was a resident of China's territory Tibet-of-Mao is appropriately classified as a Chinese citizen, but a failed revolutionary and resistance leader of little consequence.

Does anyone follow my argument here?
I may not have made myself clear.
Any questions?

Everyone in Tibet c.1959 CE became Chinese overnight.
Everyone in the Eastern Empire c.324/325 CE became
elligible to be christians overnight upon Constantine's arrival.

This is what ancient history tells us,
and that Arius was at the eye of the storm.
(Much like the Dalai Lama)
I see Arius as one of the Gnostics.

And yes - CD - it was a tragedy.
It was the end of the Second Sophistic.
The Third Sophistic was the Constantine Codex.

Quote:

The links I have above about tragedy use a general term tragedy to include comedy as a sub category - the point is a story about the relationships between the gods and humans - exactly what the Illiad is - and arguably we are looking at riffs of this, probably with strong links to Alexandria.

Political Satire

Quote:

Political satire is a significant part of satire that specializes in gaining entertainment from politics; it has also been used with subversive intent where political speech and dissent are forbidden by a regime, as a method of advancing political arguments where such arguments are expressly forbidden. Historically, the public opinion in the Athenian democracy was remarkably influenced by the political satire performed by the comic poets at the theaters.

Do we find Anti-Apostolic satire in the non canonical texts?

Clivedurdle · 08-20-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

The Tradition of the Dactylic Hexameter. Before plunging into the technical details, a few introductory words are in order. Greek and Latin poems follow certain rhythmic schemes, or meters, which are sometimes highly defined and very strict, sometimes less so. Epic poetry from Homer on was recited in a particular meter called the dactylic hexameter.

It is fair to say that the dactylic hexameter defines epic.

That is, it is impossible to conceive of an epic poem not composed in hexameters; and the hexameter rhythms, when heard, signal that the poem being recited is an epic of some sort. (It is true that in Homer's era, epics were more sung than recited, to the accompaniment of a lyre. This was not the practice in Vergil's day, when the spoken word was preferred.)

http://www.skidmore.edu/classics/cou.../metintro.html

Just wondering if the New Testament is written anywhere in dactylic hexameters...

Clivedurdle · 08-20-2009, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Most scholars treat the gospels as their own independent literary genre which ultimately derives from the work of the author of Mark — a combination of biography, aretology, and hagiography among other things. Some, though, argue there is much more going on than is initially understood, and one recent line of research has involved tracing much in Mark to the influence of the Greek epics of Homer.
Dennis MacDonald is the primary proponent of this view, and his argument has been that the gospel of Mark was written as a conscious and deliberate imitation of the stories in the Homeric epics. The goal was to give readers a familiar context to discover the superiority of Christ and Christianity over pagan gods and beliefs.

http://atheism.about.com/od/biblegos...rk/a/homer.htm

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07-28-2009, 07:28 AM	#11
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Arians - as in the vandal traditions of Spain and North Africa.

07-28-2009, 01:11 PM	#15
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The links I have above about tragedy use a general term tragedy to include comedy as a sub category - the point is a story about the relationships between the gods and humans - exactly what the Illiad is - and arguably we are looking at riffs of this, probably with strong links to Alexandria. And I thought Constantine was arian and he said to his xian bishops on his death bed - you better be right. Was he not baptised on his death bed?

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