spin

Oh, I guess you wanted us to read it all. Do your job and stop being silly.

Whooooosh, that was a fast total ignore! ...strength to purge Jerusalem from gentiles, ...smash the arrogance of the sinner like a potter's jar... then threaten the surrounding nations.

After the smashing and shattering in Judea.

Umm, if it's a warning (v.25), what's it a warning of?? Perhaps, it's like a warning from the UN. By the example of his prowess in Judea other nations will have to take notice.

Perhaps Collins makes a case somewhere, but you haven't. What exactly connects 4Q246 and the claims you are trying to make about Daniel??

Can you date 4Q246 (whose Danielic relationship we'll put on hold till you do your work) to place it outside the timeframe of Jewish messianism? (I'm just trying to help you use this text which is otherwise unhelpful to your cause.)

Perhaps you got the citation wrong for all he says about 4Q246 is "This is not to deny the great difference between a text like 4Q246 and the later Christian understanding of the divinity of Christ."

Until you can make a substantive case, no response is needed.


spin

storytime

It was alluded to? No, the premise of a messiah figure was the desire of of Jews to have a hero. The bully hero who would beat up all the kids in the schoolyard. The writers craved a hero, in the same way they craved a king to rule over them before days of Saul. God told Samuel that HE was the only hero but he'd allow the people of Israel to have their king. Samuel warned them, they didn't listen. Later after suffering the consequences as Samuel had warned, the Jews wanted a Messiah to solve their problems. Again they turned their back on their God for a man whom they designed to fit their pleasure. Problem is, the design never seemed to fit the ruling pleasure. No man appeared to fit the "form". The Jews kept looking for the perfect man, and so there were "signs" invented to look for that would identify that specific man, and a resurrected corpse was NOT one of those signs, even though the Jews held a belief in resurrection of both angel and spirit. So who could it be, the "one who should come" to rescue the Jews from the world powers and seat them as top dogs of nations? Who could possibly give the Jews something they never had in the first place? Especially as the Jews were not ever, it seems, in agreement on the specifics desired.

Just think about it Joseph, IF the Jews had stuck to God alone, without seeking another hero[messiah], you'd not have TV evangelicals like John Hagee pushing at the door of Israel ready to give the Jewish state a new identity -- in Jesus name of course.. :devil1:

:wave:

IamJoseph

No crime wanting a hero when a holocaust is hovering. In 70 CE there was a European holocaust - and the only heros were those who stood up to Rome. Here, the dementia of not recording the greatest defense of a faith in all recorded history were NOT heroes. Just think about it.

There are many like Pastor Hagee whose belief is genuine. This does not also mean what they believe in is genune. If there is proof for genuine events 2700 years ago from the earth and matching a 2700 year old writings - then one must insist on the same from writings less than 2000 years old. As of today, there are over 1 million artifacts in the Israel Museum proving Israel's history as no other nation can. The earth spews out almost weekly here - like so:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/

Rick Sumner

Yes, that's exactly what I wanted. Ps.Sol.17. Especially v32-36. But, yes, the entirety of the psalm. We'll look at various portions below.

How about you take a look at v.24-25, which explains how he will purge them, and how he will "smash the arrogance." It isn't by violence, and it isn't by his hand.

It calls to mind Is.11.2-4. There too we hear of the "rod" that will smash. Except that the rod in question isn't being swung behind war drums. It is the "rod of his mouth."

It's also reminiscient of Zech 9 (another passage that should be familiar to Christian interpretation). Like the king of Zech 9 (esp v.10-11), the Messiah of Pss.Sol. 17 will not rely on military trappings.

The threat facing Pss.Sol 17 is not military, it's social. First from the Hasmoneans, then the Romans and finally (arguably--depending on how persuasive one finds arguments of later redaction) the Herodians.

See also Pss.Sol. 2, where we find similarly millitant language describing the death of Pompeii. But who is Pompeii's executioner?

In Jerusalem, actually. The distinction is important, because it helps date the text, because it's obviously a reference to the Romans (after the Hasmoneans, who open the Psalm as the first batch of dicks. . .seems oddly sectarian, really, doubly so when compared to the rest of Pss.Sol, excepting 2 and 8).

Umm. . .what?

4Q246 uses phrases ("kingdom is an everlasting kingdom," "sovereignty is an everlasting sovereignty") that are unlikely to arise outside of Daniel.

And no, it isn't as developed as the use of Daniel in the NT or the Similitudes. That doesn't mean it isn't there.

Either 4Q246 is speaking of a Messianic figure, or it's speaking about an evil ruler who claims titles he does not deserve (as some would have it), but there doesn't seem to be much room for doubt that Daniel's prophecy is involved, and in either event, someone is interpreting it eschatologically.

I'm puzzled by why you think it needs to be outside the timeframe of Jewish Messianism. It just needs to be later than Daniel and pre-Christian for the point to hold. Since I doubt you're going to place it at either of those ends, this is just smoke and mirrors.

Wow. You didn't even bother to read the cited portion. He compares 4Q246 2.5 with Dan.3.33, 7.27, and 4.9 with Dan.2.17 and 7.14. The portion I've cited is arguing that 4Q246 is to be understood Messianically and linked to Daniel. He's not alone, the text is sometimes considered pseudo-Danielic. Christ, the notion that there were different Messianic traditions has such acceptance that they are sometimes referred to as "Danielic" and "Davidic" traditions, with minor variances between even those (so, for example, Horbury, _Messianism Among Jews and Christians_ (p59))

Seriously, if you don't have the book handy, just say so. Christ, on page 167 he spells it out explicitly: "[4Q246] suggests that the messianic interpretation of Daniel 7 had begun already in the Hasmonean period." Even Dunn doesn't go so far as to suggest that there was no application of Daniel Messianically at all, only that it wasn't as developed as some claimed.

At least read what's cited before you lecture me on the accuracy of my citation. That bordered on dishonesty.

This is just silly reasoning. It's not the NBA playoffs, with two teams left. It's not as though if you're not persuaded by me your position must be right by default. You still need evidence.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

spin

I have looked there, Rick. I also note the way that you are taking no note of the terminology such as "smash" and "shatter". Whoooosh!

You seem to have confused the rhetoric of two periods: the process that brings the arrival of the millennium (the smashing and the shattering) and the millennium itself (the righteous king over them).

Hmmm, shattering substance doesn't indicate this sort of tangent.

Zech's dealing with a totally different context, that of 5th c. BCE.

Hasmoneans, sure. Romans? Yeah, Pompey's the lawless one. But I doubt if we get down to the time of Herod. (That'd be the rewrite of the Assumption of Moses.)

Pompey's death was a fait accompli. They got the news of his death, so they couldn't put it on anyone but god.

OK, Jerusalem.

The word of his mouth supplies a warning. But what is the warning? Is it a warning with as much shtick behind it as a U.N. warning? The answer should be obvious to you. The warning should be enough to make the nations kowtow because of the implied dire consequences.

And what makes you assume that?

Well, I'm sure it's there in your head, but how does that help us?

It's about a Seleucid king.

You're trying to use 4Q246 for some damned reason that eludes me at the moment.

The only thing I can imagine is that your volume is different from mine (Hardcover 1995). P.163 starts a section called "The Messianic Interpretation".

Whatever the case, 4Q246 is probably about Antiochus IV, especially up to Col 2.1-3 and related to Isa 14:12ff. Then the people of god will bring rest from the sword under the Seleucid king.

Your accusation is based on ignorance.

Yeah, sure. When you have to demonstrate your own case, then such a requirement is silly. Where is the messianism in Jewish interpretations of Daniel?

What? that the Jewish messiah is a military leader? Check out Akiba's endorsement of Shim'on bar Kosibah. Your whoooosh over select parts of Ps. Solomon just means that you already have your view.


spin

semiopen

Wow, a link from IAJ.

Israel National News is done by Arutz Sheva (Channel Seven).

Arutz_Sheva

For what it's worth this is a religious zionist internet site, and quite right wing.

The land has certainly been spewing some interesting stuff:

The stone and glass are my favorites.

There was an article on the link that I found interesting.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800

It appears that the Palestinians are just as Jewish as IAJ.

Rick Sumner

So does mine. Same edition. You didn't read it, you got caught out, and now you're trying to excuse it.

I'll reply to the rest later when I have more time.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

storytime

Personally, Hagee makes me want to puke. But that's another topic.

Artifacts? You forget Egyptian antiquities. Egyptian civilized culture influenced the entire middle east thousands of years before the name "Hebrew" or Abraham or your god was invented. Your god was taken from it's source in "RA", 'as the sun shown over the mountain', so to speak. Seems Jacob wanted to include a trinity of gods to cover his butt when he renamed himself "Is-Ra-El". It is a cute story Joseph and the scribes did attempt to give the Hebrews something to brag about, if only they had not been so contemptible in their hatred of innocent people and totally unreliable in their storytelling.

The earth spews out its dead "artifacts" continually in Egypt. The Egyptians call them Mummies. I find Valley of the Kings extraordinarily interesting. I heard that it was the Egyptians who first began burying their dead with the heads pointed toward the east. I told my brother who's a Christian about this superstition out of ancient Egypt because he'd been taught the burial practice adopted by Christians came from the NT and Israel. Needless to say, he was surprised.

spin

Don't bother. You seem to be full of it. Your citation [For a fuller discussion, see Colins The Sceptre and the Star, p.163-170.] was wrong. I wasted time looking for whatever you were talking about (and cited the only comment about 4Q246 I found), so why whinge like a stuck pig? It can really be hard to get some people to serious. :huh:


spin

IamJoseph

These two religions have nothing in common. Not even divine sun or divine emperors. That is why Ra is not around anymore.

Sorry. The hebrew spelling is YISRA [TO STRIVE] EL [WITH THE BIG BOSS].