inquisitive01

Actually, it's called Gehenna (referred to the LOF, or lake of fire, here on this forum it seems)... the site of the future punishment (not punishing) of the 2nd death. "Hell" (or "Hades") seems to be referring to the grave, as you can see phrases along with the term such as it is "deep," "dark" (since when is fire DARK?) and "in the center of (or 'bowels of') the earth."

IF Jephthah actually went through with this, and didn't perhaps just send his daughter away to serve in a temple or something (since she was a human... not an animal), why would you blame God for this? Is this similar to how some people BLAME artificial prostheses for things such as chronic pain, infection, failure, etc., when it's actually surgical error (i.e., misplacement) that ultimately led to the problems (not the prosthesis itself)?

Maybe Deuteronomy 12:29-32 and Leviticus 9:1-4 would be of more help. Anyway, one verse (Deuteronomy 12:31, I believe) commands that one should not do as those worshipping other gods do, for some of them even go so far as to offer burnt offerings of sons and daughters (that's not exact words, but it's really close).

Amaleq13

No chance of that, I'm afraid. The story clearly states that Jephthah "did with her according to his vow which he had vowed". That the author follows this by repeating she was a virgin in no way suggests Jephthah changed the vow but serves to emphasize why her death was mourned by the daughters of Israel four days every year thereafter.

While God is not depicted as explicitly accepting the deal Jephthah offered, that acceptance could be argued as implicit when God "delivered them [the children of Ammon] into his hands". Had God chosen not to do so, Jephthah would not have felt obligated to offer the agreed upon sacrifice.

Reading the story again, I think what is being criticized is Jephthah offering to make a deal after God has already helped him in battle several times. This suggests he lacks faith that God will continue to provide assistance. Rather than reprimand Jephthah for his error by allowing him to fail against the children of Ammon, God chose to allow him to sacrifice his own daughter. I would think a Believer would recognize this story as an instructive parable rather than accept such disturbing cruelty on the part of his/her God.

Very close indeed but I wonder how well it supports efforts to argue that Jephthah did not do "with her according to his vow which he had vowed"? After all, the author of Deuteronomy (or God for that matter) would hardly have to make such a command if the prohibited behavior was not actually occurring.

DrJim

The Jepthah story needs to be interpreted in veiw of the sacrifice of Isaac story in Genesis: Why did God intervene for Isaac? God did not demand the sacrifice of the girl, but he implicitly accepted it by granting the victory.

Also, the story in Judges 19 of the rape and murder of the Levite's concubine plays off the story of the attempted rape of the angels of God at Lot's house: another story important in the Abraham saga. Again, God intervenes for his own sake, but not for the (again anonymous) girl. These two stories are very close to one another, and it is hard to think that the writer was not asking for comparisons between Judges and Genesis.

WinAce

All of Jepthah's problems coulda been avoided, if he had just brought this.

Vorkosigan

Win, that is classic. Everyone in the office is looking at me howl with laughter. Is that site yours?

LP675

To be honest I struggled to follow you. From the context I think you meant to say something to the effect “the story is ambiguous, therefore we can’t definitively say that God approved of his action�. I could be wrong.

Correct.
It’s interesting that you mention 1 Sam 15, which says:
"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice�(verse 22)

It is clear God explicitly says he wants people to do the right thing more than to make burnt sacrifices.

"The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?" says the LORD… I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats…Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations-- I cannot bear your evil assemblies…Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right! (Isaiah 1:11-17)

Again, God wants the right thing done, rather than the fulfillment of duties to sacrifice.

And what might the right thing be in this instance? You have insinuated God would either approve or would not mind Jephthah sacrificing his own child. But as others have pointed out Deuteronomy 12:31 explicitly states child sacrifice is a “detestable thing the LORD hates�. So it is a choice between doing something the LORD hates (sacrificing the child), or doing the right thing. God doesn’t want “burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as obeying the voice of the LORD�, so for me it doesn’t seem like a tricky problem to work out what should have been done, or what God would prefer.


Exodus 8:15 says "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said."I am not particularly interested in debating this, but it seems to me you interpretation is a little unsophisticated, because he hardened his own heart as well. I will agree that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and the explanation he gives is to demonstrate his power through miracles and plagues etc. As for Jonah, that story has nothing to do with ‘free will’. If someone puts a gun to your head and says “become a Mormon or your dead�, your ‘free will’ (in the sense we are speaking about) hasn’t been affected. You just have a pretty good incentive to become a Mormon.

I think you either didn’t comprehend my point or I think you ignored it. Why doesn’t God intervene with everyone’s free will before they do something God doesn’t like? Because then we wouldn’t have free will. How is this different to Hitler’s holocaust or any other such terrible tragedy (or even smaller things like a someone stealing your money etc)? If God intervened before anyone did anything wrong we would not have free will. It’s just the nature of reality at this point in time. As other have pointed out, this will not always be the case, God will intervene, people will be punished in Hell etc.

So it’s not a question of “which does God think is more important; stopping someone from doing the wrong thing? or not interfering with their free will?�. Generally God does not interfere with free will, except in very rare circumstances (and Pharaoh’s example is not analogous for the purposes of your argument because God didn’t stop him doing the ‘wrong thing’, but the ‘right thing’)

LP

Amaleq13

IMO, the "right thing" would be to prevent the girl from being burned to death. Jephthah was wrong to do it but anyone present who allowed it to happen, including God, was also wrong.

How is Jephthah's free will violated if, for example, God simply rendered the girl immune to fire?

LP675

That is a pretty ridiculous thing to say.

In chapter 10:16 God decided to save his chosen people Israel from nearly two decades of oppression by the Ammonites. You say instead of God letting him of his own accord decide to do the right thing (thereby saving one person), God could change His mind and turn the battle against Jephthah, and kill many Israelites. After the vast death and bloodshed of many men as a result of losing against the Ammonites (and the continued subjugation by the Ammonites God wanted to cease) Jephthah might not choose to sacrifice his daughter.

What an awesome idea.
:down:

Vorkosigan

The whole thing is ridiculous. The only thing to do was to kill all the Ammonites? And the poor girl? How about another solution -- bodily transport Ammonites to somewhere else? Change their opinions about Israelites? etc. There are plenty of ways to solve problems, and 99.9% don't involve killling.

And the idea that God had to take the daughter is utterly absurd. There is nothing to prevent him from saying "be serious! I never wanted you to burn your daughter! Go roast a goat and and eat it for me." That's what loving beings do. They don't demand death, either of their supporters or their enemies.

LP675

God wanted to deliver the Israelites from the oppression of the ammonites. How ridiculous.
Well generally when an aggressive enemy musters its armies and attacks you the “done thing� is fight them to prevent obliteration.
What about the poor girl? The point is God had nothing to do with it. It was the foolish action of this man against the express commandments of God not to engage in child sacrifice.
Wait, teleporting an entire nation to….(um where?) is such a sensible suggestion in the face of this entirely ‘ridiculous’ scenario? Your suggestion has been the first ridiculous thing so far.
See above references to free will.
Hello? Are you saying he didn’t make it plain he didn’t want child sacrifice? He clearly said it was a “detestable thing� He “hates�. Are you suggesting every time you are about to do something stupid God should audibly say “no my son, I don’t want you to do that�. If anyone really cares, they will look and see what he says in the scripture.