Iasion

G'day Norm,

Have you read Earl Doherty?
http://www.jesuspuzzle.org/
You can see an easy 12 point overview to start with - his page is one of the best explanations of the MJ theory.

Also,
see Michael Turton's analysis of G.Mark
http://users2.ev1.net/~turton/GMark/GMark_index.html
which shows how G.Mark is largely derived from the Tanakh.

You may like to see this table too:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentin...ity/Table.html
which shows which Christian writer said what, when.


Iasion

countjulian

You should read the description of Greece by Pausanias. it wasn't so central to pagan religion and cultture as to antique Christianity, but the worship of the dead and (suppossed) dead bodies was rather profuse in the antique world, especially Egypt. Observe the cult of the dead and buried Zeus on Crete.

Amaleq13

Is it really alien, though? Isn't there a body part of an alleged saint in every Catholic Church?

andrewcriddle

IMO a pagan cult at the tomb of a hero is rather different from the Christian veneration of the relics of saints.

(The dead Zeus at Crete is very odd and I'm not sure what to make of it. Ancient pagans seem to have had the same problem.)

Andrew Criddle

Solo

I think Amaleq's question stands. The Christian practice of entering places of burial for sacramental purposes is well attested and cannot be well argued away. Historically, it is attested internally by the Roman catacombs, by St.Pachomius in the 4th. century (Jean Dorese, The Discovery of Nag Hammadi Texts p.108), and survived in the tradition of placing of dead dignitaries in the crypts of churches to this day.

Jiri

Amaleq13

Could you be more specific with regard to how they are "rather different"?

rlogan

It's been a long while since the thread I recall where Jewish veneration of the dead was discussed.

IIRC the debate centered around a historicist apologetic regarding the lack of veneration at any alleged site for Jesus' crucifixion and burial along with the alleged martyrs of the 1st century.

One of the excuses was that there was no tradition of veneration in the first place.


At any rate there was some discussion of ancient Jewish veneration.

mountainman

Constantine had himself buried by supreme edict
alongside stelles of the twelve apostles in the city
of Constantine, making himself both the thirteenth
apostle, and turning building previously a basilica,
into a tomb, albeit temporarily, until his body was
later shifted elsewhere.

Previous Roman emperors had been apparently
content to become divinised in the traditional
practice, which included the reverence of small
statues in households of the empire, of many in
the lineage of Roman emperors, well into the 2nd
century CE.

The "making divine" of any other personage of antiquity
within the Roman empire needs strong contrast with
and against this traditional practice of "making divine"
many of the lineage of Roman emperors.

When did the "making divine" of ROman emperors stop?
Does anyone know offhand?




Pete Brown

Roger Pearse

Perhaps; although Cyril obviously uses the similarity.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

andrewcriddle

There is a good discussion in chapter one of Peter Brown's The Cult of the Saints (or via: amazon.co.uk)
Brown goes on to contrast this with the parting of Artemis and the dying Hippolytus in Euripides.

Julian definitely disliked the Christian cult of martyrs
from Epistulae et Leges quoted by Brown
Andrew Criddle