Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 06-04-2010, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

It may be worth noting that the status of "Discourse to the Greeks" and "Hortatory Address to the Greeks" as genuine works of Justin Martyr is dubious.

Andrew Criddle

But, the author or authors, whoever they were, did name the myths of Homer.

Quote:

These are some of the MYTHS of Homer.
1. Hector
2. the son of Thetis
3. Chryseis
4. Briseis
5. Helen
6. Agamemnon
7. Pelides
8. Apollo
9. Ulysses
10. Ajax, son of Telamon
11.Polyxena

They did NOT EXIST.

It must be noted that it is also dubious that anyone called Mathew and John were actual disciples of Jesus the MYTH who was the offspring of the Holy Ghost, equal to God, the Creator of heaven and earth, walked on water, transfigured and was RAISED from the dead.

PhilosopherJay · 06-04-2010, 05:44 PM

Hi aa5874,

You are assuming that the word "myth" had the same meaning for Justin as it has for us.

Please note this from Plato's Myths and Mystery Tradition:

Quote:

In original Greek usage, mythos denoted anything spoken by mouth, that is, a word, a speech, or a story. Shortly after Pindar, it came to mean the poetic account of events before the dawn of history, while a similar term, logos, also meaning "word," denoted the historic tale. In time, myth acquired its negative connotations of fantasy and childish nonsense, whereas logos came to mean reason and authentic historical narrative. The words were eventually married, begetting the scholarly subject called mythology: "authentic discourse about ancient tales."

Note also this:
from Leonard, S. & McClure, M. (2004). Myth & knowing: An introduction to world mythology (or via: amazon.co.uk), Chapter 1. The McGraw-Hill Companies, Ney York. 2004.

Quote:

Over time the meaning of the word myth and the effect that myths themselves have had on society has been hypothesized and expounded upon by many individuals from some of the most respected theorists to the most humble field worker. From Hesoid’s earliest use of mythos as “breathed by the divine” in 700 BCE to Hericlitus’ sneering at the common folk or “hoi polloi” for believing in such ridiculous tales in 500 BCE, to Plato using the word mythos as being “synonymous with falsehood” sometime in 300 BCE, and on to Euhemeros who claimed to have found the origins of his unsophisticated ancestors’ ancient metanarratrives of the creation of the universe and the will of the gods, the controversy over the meaning of myth and the implications ascribed to those meanings has continued through the centuries. Early in the Common Era “church fathers” of the Roman Catholic Church “used a form of euhemeris-m to contrast the “false” gods of the Greek and Roman pantheons with Jesus.” The “divinely” imparted was now presented as ignorant, and in the same style as Ehumeros, new myths were created by such notables as Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian to illustrate the superiority of the Christian theology over the Greeks’ “fanciful tales” (Leonard & McClure, 2004).

Justin is using a form of euhemerism. The context tells us how Justin is using the word "myth".

Quote:

Do not suppose, ye Greeks, that my separation from your customs is unreasonable and unthinking; for I found in them nothing that is holy or acceptable to God.

For the very compositions of your poets are monuments of madness and intemperance. For any one who becomes the scholar of your most eminent instructor, is more beset by difficulties than all men besides.

Quote:

For first they say that Agamemnon, abetting the extravagant lust of his brother, and his madness and unrestrained desire, readily gave even his daughter to be sacrificed, and troubled all Greece that he might rescue Helen, who had been ravished by the leprous shepherd.

He attacks Agamemnon for helping his brother's "extravagant lust" for a woman (Helen). This is an attack on heterosexuality

Quote:

But when in the course of the war they took captives, Agamemnon was himself taken captive by Chryseis,

Justin attacks Agamemnon for his love of Chryseis. This is an attack on heterosexuality

Quote:

and for Briseis' sake kindled a feud with the son of Thetis.

Justin attacks Agamemnon for feuding with Achilles over a woman. This is an attack on heterosexuality

Quote:

And Pelides himself, who crossed the river, overthrew Troy, and subdued Hector, this your hero became the slave of Polyxena, and was conquered by a dead Amazon; and putting off the god-fabricated armour, and donning the hymeneal robe, he became a sacrifice of love in the temple of Apollo.

Pelides/Achilles was killed by Paris when he fell in love with Polyxena, King's Priam's daughter. This is an attack on heterosexuality

Quote:

And the Ithacan Ulysses made a virtue of a vice. And indeed his sailing past the Sirens gave evidence that he was destitute of worthy prudence, because he could not depend on his prudence for stopping his ears.

Men could not resist the song of the sirens and fell hopelessly in love with them. By stopping his ears, Ulysses was admitting he couldn't help falling in love with them. This is an attack on heterosexuality.

Ajax, son of Telamon, who bore the shield of sevenfold ox-hide, went mad when he was defeated in the contest with Ulysses for the armour.
Justin criticizes Ajax for being too passionate about Archilles' armour and killing himself over it. This is an attack on a man being too emotional or woman-like.

Quote:

Such things I have no desire to be instructed in. Of such virtue I am not covetous, that I should believe the myths of Homer.

For the whole rhapsody, the beginning and end both of the Iliad and the Odyssey is--a woman.

Justin attacks the Iliad for being about a war caused by two men's love of Helen and the Odyssey which is done for the sake of Odysseus's love of Penelope. This is an attack on heterosexuality.

All the attacks against these characters are attacks against men loving women, or in the case of Ajax, a man acting womanly. It is perhaps noteworthy, I think, that he does not attack the examples of homosexuality in the books.

Incidentally, Rev. M, Dods' translation of the passage "Such things I have no desire to be instructed in. Of such virtue I am not covetous, that I should believe the myths of Homer" is quite stilted even by 19th century standards. I could not find another translation or the Greek online. I would be curious to see the Greek or another translator's translation.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

..If I say, "Julius Caesar was not a God," I am not saying that Julius Caesar did not exist. I am merely not classifying him in the category of God.

And if you say Julius Caesar was a myth then you are saying Julius Caesar did not exist.

Well what did Justin Martyr say about the Gods of the poets?

He called them myths.

Justin Martyr named the MYTHS of HOMER.

"The Discourse to The Greeks"1

Quote:

Do not suppose, ye Greeks, that my separation from your customs is unreasonable and unthinking; for I found in them nothing that is holy or acceptable to God.

For the very compositions of your poets are monuments of madness and intemperance. For any one who becomes the scholar of your most eminent instructor, is more beset by difficulties than all men besides.

For first they say that Agamemnon, abetting the extravagant lust of his brother, and his madness and unrestrained desire, readily gave even his daughter to be sacrificed, and troubled all Greece that he might rescue Helen, who had been ravished by the leprous shepherd.

But when in the course of the war they took captives, Agamemnon was himself taken captive by Chryseis, and for Briseis' sake kindled a feud with the son of Thetis. And Pelides himself, who crossed the river, overthrew Troy, and subdued Hector, this your hero became the slave of Polyxena, and was conquered by a dead Amazon; and putting off the god-fabricated armour, and donning the hymeneal robe, he became a sacrifice of love in the temple of Apollo. And the Ithacan Ulysses made a virtue of a vice.

And indeed his sailing past the Sirens gave evidence that he was destitute of worthy prudence, because he could not depend on his prudence for stopping his ears. Ajax, son of Telamon, who bore the shield of sevenfold ox-hide, went mad when he was defeated in the contest with Ulysses for the amour.

Such things I have no desire to be instructed in. Of such virtue I am not covetous, that I should believe the myths of Homer.

For the whole rhapsody, the beginning and end both of the Iliad and the Odyssey is--a woman.

These are some of the MYTHS of Homer.
1. Hector
2. the son of Thetis
3. Chryseis
4. Briseis
5. Helen
6. Agamemnon
7. Pelides
8. Apollo
9. Ulysses
10. Ajax, son of Telamon
11.Polyxena

They did NOT EXIST.

aa5874 · 06-04-2010, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

You are assuming that the word "myth" had the same meaning for Justin as it has for us.

But, it was not Justin that used the word "myth" it was the TRANSLATORS who translated the Greek text to English.

The translators used "myth" because that is what the context of the passage denoted.

Your argument has deteriorated.

You NOW must show that the translators use of "myth" was unusual or that there is hardly any time "myth" was used by the same translators for the same Greek word or that it was very unusual for other translators to have used "myth" as a translation of the very Greek word, or that "myth" is hardly ever used in most other works with the same Greek word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Ajax, son of Telamon, who bore the shield of sevenfold ox-hide, went mad when he was defeated in the contest with Ulysses for the armour.

Justin criticizes Ajax for being too passionate about Archilles' armour and killing himself over it. This is an attack on a man being too emotional or woman-like.

Justin did NOT criticize Ajax of Telamon at all. Justin Martyr REPEATED the "compositions by the poets of madness and intemperance".

Justin Martyr

Quote:

" For the very compositions of your poets are monuments of madness and intemperance."

It was Homer or the poets, according to Justin, who wrote the myth that Ajax, son of Telamon, who bore the shield of sevenfold ox-hide, went mad when he was defeated in the contest with Ulysses for the armour.

You have completely missed the words of Justin.

Look at them.

Justin Martyr

Quote:

For first they say that Agamemnon, abetting the extravagant lust of his brother, and his madness and unrestrained desire, readily gave even his daughter to be sacrificed, and troubled all Greece that he might rescue Helen, who had been ravished by the leprous shepherd.

Justin WROTE what "THEY SAY", what HOMER and the POETS SAY in their compositions of madness and intemperance.

PhilosopherJay · 06-04-2010, 09:47 PM

Hi aa5874,

Okay, lets try a different tact.

Here is the Liddell-Scott definition of the Greek word "Mythos"

Quote:

μῦθος , o(

A. word, speech, freq. in Hom. and other Poets, in sg. and pl., “ἔπος καὶ μῦθος” Od.11.561; opp. “ἔργον, μύθων τε ῥητῆρ᾽ ἔμεναι πρηκτῆρά τε ἔργων” Il.9.443, cf. 19.242; esp. mere word, μύθοισιν, opp. ἔγχεϊ, 18.252; “ἔργῳ κοὐκέτι μύθῳ” A.Pr.1080 (anap.), etc.:—in special relations:
2. public speech, “μ. ἄνδρεσσι μελήσει” Od.1.358; “μύθοισιν σκολιοῖς” Hes.Op.194; μύθου ἐπισχεσίη the submission of a plea, Od.21.71; “πρὶν ἂν ἀμφοῖν μ. ἀκούσῃς, οὐκ ἂν δικάσαις” Ar.V.725; μύθοισι κεκάσθαι to be skilled in speech, Od.7.157.
3. conversation, mostly in pl., 4.214,239, etc.
4. thing said, fact, matter, μῦθον δέ τοι οὐκ ἐπικεύσω ib.744; “τὸν ὄντα μ.” E.El.346; threat, command, “ἠπείλησεν μῦθον” Il.1.388, cf. 25, 16.83; charge, mission, 9.625; counsel, advice, 7.358.
5. thing thought, unspoken word, purpose, design, 1.545 (pl.); “μύθων οὓς μνηστῆρες ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βυσσοδόμευον” Od.4.676, cf.777; “ἔχετ᾽ ἐν φρεσὶ μῦθον” 15.445; “ἔχε σιγῇ μ., ἐπίτρεψον δὲ θεοῖσι” 19.502, cf. 11.442; matter, “θεοῖσι μῦθον ἐπιτρέψαι” 22.289; μῦθον μυθείσθην, τοῦ εἵνεκα λαὸν ἄγειραν the reason why . . , 3.140.
6. saying, “κατὰ τὸν ἡμέτερον μ.” Pl.Epin.980a; οὐκ ἐμὸς ὁ μ. ἀλλ' . . E.Fr.484, cf. Pl.Smp.177a, Call.Lav.Pall.56, Ph.1.601, Plu. 2.661a; saw, proverb, “τριγέρων μ. τάδε φωνεῖ” A.Ch.314 (anap.).
7. talk of men, rumour, “ἀγγελίαν . . τὰν ὁ μέγας μ. ἀέξει” S.Aj.226 (lyr.), cf. 188 (lyr., pl.), E.IA72; report, message, S.Tr.67 (pl.), E.Ion 1340.

II. tale, story, narrative, Od.3.94, 4.324, S.Ant.11, etc.: in Hom. like the later λόγος, without distinction of true or false, μ. παιδός of or about him, Od.11.492: so in Trag., ἀκούσει μῦθον ἐν βραχεῖ λόγῳ （χρόνῳ cod. M.) A.Pers.713; “μύθων τῶν Λιβυστικῶν” Id.Fr.139.1: in Prose, τὸν εἰκότα μ. the like ly story, like lihood, Pl.Ti.29d: prov., μ. ἀπώλετο, either of a story which never comes to an end, or of one told to those who do not listen, Cratin.59, Crates Com.21, Pl.Tht. 164d, cf. R.621b, Lg.645b, Phlb.14a; μ. ἐσώθη 'that's the end of the story', Phot.
2. fiction (opp. λόγος, historic truth), Pi.O.1.29 (pl.), N.7.23 (pl.), Pl.Phd.61b, Prt.320c, 324d, etc.
3. generally, fiction, “μ. ἴδιοι” Phld.Po.5.5; legend, myth, Hdt.2.45, Pl.R.330d, Lg. 636c, etc.; “ὁ περὶ θεῶν μ.” Epicur.Ep.3p.65U.; “τοὺς μ. τοὺς ἐπιχωρίους γέγραφεν” SIG382.7 (Delos, iii B.C.).
4. professed work of fiction, children's story, fable, Pl.R.377a; of Aesop's fables, Arist. Mete.356b11.
5. plot of a comedy or tragedy, Id.Po.1449b5, 1450a4, 1451a16.

Why do you think that the same stories that the writer of "Discourse to the Greeks" refers to as "mythos. he later describes as histories?

chap III:

Quote:

Since, therefore, ye Greeks, your gods are convicted of intemperance, and your heroes are effeminate, as the histories on which your dramas are founded have declared, such as the curse of Atreus, the bed of Thyestes(2) and the taint in the house of Pelops, and Danaus murdering through hatred and making AEgyptus childless in the intoxication of his rage, and the Thyestean banquet spread by the Furies.(3) And Procne is to this day flitting about, lamenting; and her sister of Athens shrills with her tongue cut out. For what need is there of speaking of the goad(4) of OEdipus, and the murder of Laius, and the marrying his mother, and the mutual slaughter of those who were at once his brothers and his sons?

The writer says that the ancient Greek plays are based on "histories," but the ancient Greek plays are based on the characters found in the Greek Myths.

chapter 4:

Quote:

And this further I would say to you, why are you, being a Greek, indignant at your son when he imitates Jupiter, and rises against you and defrauds you of your own wife? Why do you count him your enemy, and yet worship one that is like him? And why do you blame your wife for living in unchastity, and yet honour Venus with shrines? If indeed these things had been related by others, they would have seemed to be mere slanderous accusations, and not truth. But now your own poets sing these things, and your histories noisily publish them.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

You are assuming that the word "myth" had the same meaning for Justin as it has for us.

But, it was not Justin that used the word "myth" it was the TRANSLATORS who translated the Greek text to English.

The translators used "myth" because that is what the context of the passage denoted.

Your argument has deteriorated.

You NOW must show that the translators use of "myth" was unusual or that there is hardly any time "myth" was used by the same translators for the same Greek word or that it was very unusual for other translators to have used "myth" as a translation of the very Greek word, or that "myth" is hardly ever used in most other works with the same Greek word.

Justin did NOT criticize Ajax of Telamon at all. Justin Martyr REPEATED the "compositions by the poets of madness and intemperance".

Justin Martyr

It was Homer or the poets, according to Justin, who wrote the myth that Ajax, son of Telamon, who bore the shield of sevenfold ox-hide, went mad when he was defeated in the contest with Ulysses for the armour.

You have completely missed the words of Justin.

Look at them.

Justin Martyr

Quote:

For first they say that Agamemnon, abetting the extravagant lust of his brother, and his madness and unrestrained desire, readily gave even his daughter to be sacrificed, and troubled all Greece that he might rescue Helen, who had been ravished by the leprous shepherd.

Justin WROTE what "THEY SAY", what HOMER and the POETS SAY in their compositions of madness and intemperance.

aa5874 · 06-04-2010, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Why do you think that the same stories that the writer of "Discourse to the Greeks" refers to as "mythos. he later describes as histories?

But, this is a just rhetorical question. Justin in the VERY FIRST paragraph of "Discourse to the Greeks" established that the histories of the Greek Gods were myths.

Please LISTEN to Justin. He wants nothing to do with the myths of Homer. They are MADNESS. He has SEPARATED himself from "customs of the Greeks" and wants NO instructions from the compositions of the poets.

This is from the VERY First paragraph and lines in "Discourse to the Greeks"

Quote:

Do not suppose, ye Greeks, that my separation from your customs is unreasonable and unthinking; for I found in them nothing that is holy or acceptable to God. For the very compositions of your poets are monuments of madness and intemperance................Such things I have no desire to be instructed in. Of such virtue I am not covetous, that I should believe the myths of Homer...

Listen to Justin in chapter 2 of "Discourse to the Greeks". Justin does not believe the DRIVELLING THEOGONY of the poets.

Quote:

But since, next to Homer, Hesiod wrote his Works and Days, who will believe his drivelling theogony?

For they say that Chronos, the son of Ouranos, in the beginning slew his father, and possessed himself of his rule; and that, being seized with a panic lest he should himself suffer in the same way, he preferred devouring his children; but that, by the craft of the Curetes, Jupiter was conveyed away and kept in secret, and afterwards bound his father with chains, and divided the empire; Jupiter receiving, as the story goes, the air, and Neptune the deep, and Pluto the portion of Hades. But Pluto ravished Proserpine; and Ceres sought her child wandering through the deserts.

And this myth was celebrated in the Eleusinian fire.....

The list of myths continues. This time the mythological theogony is from Hesiod.

1. Chronos, the son of Ouranos
2.Curetes
3. Jupiter
4. Neptune
5. Pluto
6. Prosperine
7. Ceres

It is clear that Justin is SAYING that the histories from the poets are myths.

PhilosopherJay · 06-05-2010, 12:13 PM

Hi aa5874,

Once again the writer is not criticizing the mythos (stories) as untrue, the writer is criticizing the mythos (stories) for portraying unseemly behavior in the Gods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Why do you think that the same stories that the writer of "Discourse to the Greeks" refers to as "mythos. he later describes as histories?

But, this is a just rhetorical question. Justin in the VERY FIRST paragraph of "Discourse to the Greeks" established that the histories of the Greek Gods were myths.

Please LISTEN to Justin. He wants nothing to do with the myths of Homer. They are MADNESS. He has SEPARATED himself from "customs of the Greeks" and wants NO instructions from the compositions of the poets.

This is from the VERY First paragraph and lines in "Discourse to the Greeks"

Listen to Justin in chapter 2 of "Discourse to the Greeks". Justin does not believe the DRIVELLING THEOGONY of the poets.

Quote:

But since, next to Homer, Hesiod wrote his Works and Days, who will believe his drivelling theogony?

Why does the author call the theogony "drivelling?"

Quote:

For they say that Chronos, the son of Ouranos, in the beginning slew his father, and possessed himself of his rule; and that, being seized with a panic lest he should himself suffer in the same way, he preferred devouring his children;

The author criticizes the fact that a god kills his father, steals his kingdom and eats his children. The author considers that these are gruesome, anti-partriarchal things that should not be attributed to the Gods.

Quote:

but that, by the craft of the Curetes, Jupiter was conveyed away and kept in secret,

The curetes were handmaidens of Rhea, daughter of Uranus (sky) and Gaia (earth) who gave birth to Zeus/Jupiter.This shows disobedience on the part of handmaidens to the family patriarch Chronos.

Quote:

and afterwards bound his father with chains, and divided the empire;

Again the author is pointing out the anti-patriarchal nature of the story. The father is put in chains and his estate divided.

Quote:

Jupiter receiving, as the story goes, the air, and Neptune the deep, and Pluto the portion of Hades. But Pluto ravished Proserpine; and Ceres sought her child wandering through the deserts.

The author points out that Pluto rapes a Proserpine and Ceres has to go looking for her, both of which are things inappropriate for a god/goddess.

Quote:

And this myth was celebrated in the Eleusinian fire

.....
This story formed the foreground to the story of the Eleusian fire where Ceres looking for Perserpine became a nursemaid to Triptolemus. She put him into a fire to make him immortal, but when Eleusinus, his father saw this, he screamed and in the ensuing panic Triptolemus was burnt up. This story makes the goddess look clumsy and a bad nurse maid as well.

The author continues with his list of the immoral things that the gods have done:

Quote:

Again, Neptune ravished Melanippe when she was drawing water, besides abusing a host of Nereids not a few, whose names, were we to recount them, would cost us a multitude of words. And as for Jupiter, he was a various adulterer, with Antiope as a satyr, with Danae as gold, and with Europa as a bull; with Leda, moreover, he assumed wings. For the love of Semele proved both his unchastity and the jealousy of Semele. And they say that he carried off the Phrygian Ganymede to be his cup-bearer. These, then, are the exploits of the sons of Saturn. And your illustrious son of Latona [Apollo], who professed soothsaying, convicted himself of lying. He pursued Daphne, but did not gain possession of her; and to Hyacinthus,(7) who loved him, he did not foretell his death. And I say nothing of the masculine character of Minerva, nor of the feminine nature of Bacchus, nor of the fornicating disposition of Venus. Read to Jupiter, ye Greeks, the law against parricides, and the penalty of adultery, and the ignominy of paederasty. Teach Minerva and Diana the works of women, and Bacchus the works of men. What seemliness is there in a woman's girding herself with armour, or in a man's decorating himself with cymbals, and garlands, and female attire, and accompanied by a herd of bacchanalian women?

In these mythos/stories the Greek gods break the common Greek laws against parricide, adultery and paederastry. He seems especially upset about the switching of sexual roles that the gods like Minerva, Diana and Bacchus did.
Again, it is clear that the writer is upset about how the gods are portrayed in an immoral fashion in the stories. He does not pick out stories where the Gods show mercy, help human beings or give them gifts (Prometheus, for example). He is only picking out the parts of the mythos/stories where the gods behave in a way that is ungodlike. He does this not to prove that don't exist, but that they do exist and are not true gods, but false gods and in fact demons.
This is why he says in chapter 4

Quote:

And your public assemblies I have come to hate. For there are excessive banquetings, and subtle flutes which provoke to lustful movements, and useless and luxurious anointings, and crowning with garlands. With such a mass of evils do you banish shame; and ye fill your minds with them, and are carried away by intemperance, and indulge as a common practice in wicked and insane fornication.

The Greek mysteries which celebrate the Greek mythos (stories) got men and women sexually excited. The author has a thing against sexuality. To me the interesting question is whether it was aimed at all sexuality or just heterosexuality?

Quote:

The list of myths continues. This time the mythological theogony is from Hesiod.

1. Chronos, the son of Ouranos
2.Curetes
3. Jupiter
4. Neptune
5. Pluto
6. Prosperine
7. Ceres

It is clear that Justin is SAYING that the histories from the poets are myths.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

aa5874 · 06-05-2010, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Once again the writer is not criticizing the mythos (stories) as untrue, the writer is criticizing the mythos (stories) for portraying unseemly behavior in the Gods.

That could not be true. Justin criticizes the POETS like Homer and Hesiod.

Again Justin claimed there was ONE GOD and his predicted Son in existence.

This is "First Apology""First Apology" LIV

Quote:

But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race...

Justin Martyr claimed:

1. The myths were made by the POETS.

2. The POETS have NO proof of the myths they made.

3. The POETS were INFLUENCED by wicked demons.

4. The POETS have deceived and led the human race astray.

Justin Martyr, like other Jesus believers, BELIEVED there was ONE GOD, his predicted son, angels, the Devil (the father of lies), demons, evil sprits but it cannot be shown where Justin Martyr claimed to actually KNOW and name a Greek MYTHICAL God which ACTUALLY did exist, did prove that any existed and did write about the ACTUAL activities of any Greek God.

PhilosopherJay · 06-06-2010, 04:54 PM

Hi aa5874,

The idea that there were many demons in the world was propagated by Christians as dogma until the 17th century when Philosophers started to figure out that there were natural causes and physical laws at work in the universe that could explain things better than the concept of evil demons. It is a mistake to think that Justin was promoting this idea 15 centuries earlier and somehow the Christians went astray from Justin and started believing in demons after Justin had said that they don't exist. The texts are explicit that he does believe in them and he includes the Greek and Roman Gods among them.

If the "demons" that Justin constantly refer to are not the Greek Gods, who are they?

First Apology (5)

Quote:

Why, then, should this be? In our case, who pledge ourselves to do no wickedness, nor to hold these atheistic opinions, you do not examine the charges made against us; but, yielding to unreasoning passion, and to the instigation of evil demons, you punish us without consideration or judgment. For the truth shall be spoken; since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves, both defiled women and corrupted boys, and showed such fearful sights to men, that those who did not use their reason in judging of the actions that were done, were struck with terror; and being carried away by fear, and not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods, and gave to each the name which each of the demons chose for himself.

(5)

Quote:

we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, but assert that they are wicked and impious demons, whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue.

(9)

Quote:

And neither do we honour with many sacrifices and garlands of flowers such deities as men have formed and set in shrines and called gods; since we see that these are soulless and dead, and have not the form of God (for we do not consider that God has such a form as some say that they imitate to His honour), but have the names and forms of those wicked demons which have appeared.

(10)

Quote:

For the restraint which human laws could not effect, the Word, inasmuch as He is divine, would have effected, had not the wicked demons, taking as their ally the lust of wickedness which is in every man, and which draws variously to all manner of vice, scattered many false and profane accusations, none of which attach to us.

(14)

Quote:

For we forewarn you to be on your guard, lest those demons whom we have been accusing should deceive you, and quite diver you from reading and understanding what we say. For they strive to hold you their slaves and servants; and sometimes by appearances in dreams, and sometimes by magical impositions, they subdue all who make no strong opposing effort for their own salvation.

If the gods/demons do not exist, how can Justin say, "For they strive to hold you their slaves and servants; and sometimes by appearances in dreams, and sometimes by magical impositions, they subdue all who make no strong opposing effort for their own salvation?"

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

Once again the writer is not criticizing the mythos (stories) as untrue, the writer is criticizing the mythos (stories) for portraying unseemly behavior in the Gods.

That could not be true. Justin criticizes the POETS like Homer and Hesiod.

Again Justin claimed there was ONE GOD and his predicted Son in existence.

This is "First Apology""First Apology" LIV

Quote:

But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race...

Justin Martyr claimed:

1. The myths were made by the POETS.

2. The POETS have NO proof of the myths they made.

3. The POETS were INFLUENCED by wicked demons.

4. The POETS have deceived and led the human race astray.

Justin Martyr, like other Jesus believers, BELIEVED there was ONE GOD, his predicted son, angels, the Devil (the father of lies), demons, evil sprits but it cannot be shown where Justin Martyr claimed to actually KNOW and name a Greek MYTHICAL God which ACTUALLY did exist, did prove that any existed and did write about the ACTUAL activities of any Greek God.

aa5874 · 06-06-2010, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

The idea that there were many demons in the world was propagated by Christians as dogma until the 17th century when Philosophers started to figure out that there were natural causes and physical laws at work in the universe that could explain things better than the concept of evil demons. It is a mistake to think that Justin was promoting this idea 15 centuries earlier and somehow the Christians went astray from Justin and started believing in demons after Justin had said that they don't exist. The texts are explicit that he does believe in them and he includes the Greek and Roman Gods among them.

But you are just repeating the same fallacies over and over. I showed you a passage where Justin CLEARY implied that he did not BELIEVE the myths of Homer.

Quote:

Do not suppose, ye Greeks, that my separation from your customs is unreasonable and unthinking; for I found in them nothing that is holy or acceptable to God. For the very compositions of your poets are monuments of madness and intemperance................Such things I have no desire to be instructed in.

Of such virtue I am not covetous, that I should believe the myths of Homer...

I showed you a passage where Justin implied he did not believe the theogony of Hesiod.

Quote:

But since, next to Homer, Hesiod wrote his Works and Days, who will believe his drivelling theogony?

I showed you a passage where he believed the plurality of God were lies and a disease spread by the father of lies.

"Hortatory Address to the Greeks" XXI

Quote:

This first false fancy, therefore, concerning gods,[ had its origin with the father of lies.

God, therefore, knowing that the false opinion about the plurality of gods was burdening the soul of man like some disease, and wishing to remove and eradicate it, appeared first to Moses, and said to him, "I am He who is."....

I showed you a passage where he referred to the RIDICULOUS THEOGONY of the Poets.

Hortatory Address to the Greeks

Quote:

It will do your cause no good to say so to men who know the poets; for they know how very ridiculous a theogony they have composed,--as we can learn from Homer, your most distinguished and prince of poets.

Discourse to the Greeks

Quote:

But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race....

How can you still claim Justin believed in the Greek Gods and still claim that they are lies?

It was the poets who made the Greek Gods under the influence of demons and had NO PROOF of the theogony they wrote.

PhilosopherJay · 06-08-2010, 12:25 PM

Hi aa5874,

In quoting each of the lines you do, you seem to assume that they have the meaning that a modern man who does not believe in the ancient Greco-Roman Gods would give them. Instead of again repeating that this is to read Justin anachronistically, I will quote from an article by the scholar Elaine Pagels who holds the identical view as mine on this issue.

This is from her article Christian Apologists and "The Fall of the Angels": An Attack on Roman Imperial Power? The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 78, No. 3/4 (Jul. - Oct., 1985), pp. 301-325. (I have put in bold print the conclusion at the end)

Quote:

...Justin, relating this story, wants to answer the questions he knows it will raise in the mind of any Roman citizen: why do Christians refuse to worship the gods, or to perform the ordinary tokens of civic loyalty by offering sacrifice to the emperor's genius? The Christians know, Justin explains, a terrible secret: that the power behind the magistrate's demand-and, in fact, behind all such imperial commands-is not divine but demonic. Justin traces the sinister origin of this power back to the primordial fall of the angels:

Quote:

The truth shall be told; since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves, both polluted women and corrupted boys, and showed such terrifying visions to people that those who did not use their reason . . . were struck by terror; and being carried away by fear, and not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods. (1 Apol. 5)

Justin sees the practical effect of this deception enacted in the law courts, from the condemnation of Socrates to the most recent case of arraignment of Christians:

Quote:

And when Socrates attempted by true reason and investigation to ... deliver men from the demons, then the demons themselves, using men as their instruments, brought upon him death for being an atheist; and in our case, too, they do the same things. (1 Apol. 5)2

But how could such government arise? If, as the Christians claim, their God created the world upon a foundation of goodness and justice, how has it come to be dominated by demons who sabotage human welfare? Or, to put the question in immediate terms, how has the world come to be ruled by men like Urbicus and his imperial masters, whose laws tolerate sexual promiscuity and support private vengeance, legally sanctioning the killing of innocent people? To answer, Justin introduces the story with which we began-the fall of the angels. The fault, he explains, lies not with God, but with his subordinates.

Quote:

After the angels to whom God had entrusted the administration of the universe had betrayed their positions of responsibility, seducing women and corrupting boys (so Justin amplifies the account of Genesis 6), they "begot children, who are called demons" (2 Apol 5).

Discovering the corruption in his administration, God expelled these angels from office. Then these exiled angels attempted to compensate for their lost power by joining with their own offspring, the demons, in attempting to enslave the human race. Drawing upon the supernatural powers that even disgraced angelic beings still retain, they awed and terrified people into worshiping them as gods.

The majority of humankind, Justin explains, fell under their power; only an exceptional few, like Socrates, remained free from demonically induced mental slavery. This invisible network of supernatural energies proceeded to promote the fortunes of their henchmen who were driven by the same blind passions. "Taking as their ally the lust of wickedness in everyone," Justin explains, the demons became the patrons of powerful and ruthless men, and "instituted private and public rites in honor of those who are more powerful" (1 Apol. 10; Ps.-Justin Demon. 1).

The result of these primordial events Justin sees at every turn- above all in the vast panoply of imperial ideology, which claims, for the Roman emperors and their governors, magistrates and armies, the power and protection of the gods. What happened in Urbicus's courtroom, where the prefect protected the interests of a ruthless and immoral man while condemning a Christian teacher and his defenders to torture and death, evinces, Justin believes, the same demonic inversion of justice:
For Justin and his contemporaries, the story of the mating of the angels with the daughters of men and of its dire consequences for the peace of society was not a distant myth: it was a map on which they plotted the disruptions and tensions around them?

Christians share in common with pagans the conviction that invisible networks of superhuman beings energize human activity, and above all, empower the emperor and his subordinates to dominate the world. But there agreement ends. What pagans revere as assuring divine protection, Christians abhor as demonic tyranny. Justin launches, as we shall see, nothing less than a frontal attack upon the theology of imperial power-the massive official propaganda that the Antonine emperors inherited from their predecessors. It vigorously promoted, publicizing on coins, through imperial edicts, on public monuments, and in circuses and public festivals, the claims to divine sanction for their dynastic ambitions. The emperors themselves, officially praised as embodying divine cosmic rule, are, Justin suspects, actually enslaved to the powers of darkness.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

The idea that there were many demons in the world was propagated by Christians as dogma until the 17th century when Philosophers started to figure out that there were natural causes and physical laws at work in the universe that could explain things better than the concept of evil demons. It is a mistake to think that Justin was promoting this idea 15 centuries earlier and somehow the Christians went astray from Justin and started believing in demons after Justin had said that they don't exist. The texts are explicit that he does believe in them and he includes the Greek and Roman Gods among them.

But you are just repeating the same fallacies over and over. I showed you a passage where Justin CLEARY implied that he did not BELIEVE the myths of Homer.

I showed you a passage where Justin implied he did not believe the theogony of Hesiod.

I showed you a passage where he believed the plurality of God were lies and a disease spread by the father of lies.

"Hortatory Address to the Greeks" XXI

I showed you a passage where he referred to the RIDICULOUS THEOGONY of the Poets.

Hortatory Address to the Greeks

Discourse to the Greeks

Quote:

But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race....

How can you still claim Justin believed in the Greek Gods and still claim that they are lies?

It was the poets who made the Greek Gods under the influence of demons and had NO PROOF of the theogony they wrote.

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