disgracian

where could one find such data?

greyline

This is the AA line but it's not a proven fact.

There are plenty of former addicts, not brainwashed by AA, who consider themselves "cured" of this bad habit - who's to say they're mistaken?

kaelcarp

Well, the terminology used in substance abuse research does not include alcoholics who are cured, that's all. I think that's because people can go a very long time and relapse. They refer to it as being in remission.

MrFurious76

Having had to deal with AA/NA for my entire counseling career, I'm dead set against it for mainly one reason: it is in many cases the ONLY program that will get federal or state grant money in most areas. That means if you are an addict coming through the court system, its AA/NA or the highway. Considering its failure rate (and from my personal experience its easily around 80-90%) and what it "teaches" I think other options should exist for a recovering addict. There are programs in other countries that work well, and as said a large number stop without any program at all. I don't buy the disease theory of alcoholism at all after having worked with many addicts and alcoholics, and hated having to peddle it for so long once I saw how full of crap it really was.

kaelcarp

I know if I were an alcoholic, I would want something other than AA. Thankfully, where I am, there are several options available. But I live in a very liberal, secular area. I'm sure that in many places in the south or midwest, AA is the only solution, and that should definitely not be the case. There is even some research that shows that a good portion of people have more success with cutting down their drinking rather than going cold turkey. To apply abstinence as a blanket solution for alcoholism is foolish. Everyone is different, and no one should receive inappropriate treatment because they don't fall into a particular category. I think AA is generally beneficial in that it does have some success in an area where success is incredibly difficult. It doesn't work for everyone, however, and there should be options.

The Hillbilly

I'd be interested in knowing just which AA groups get government money. If that is true, then I'll go back to AA, start a group, and apply for a grant myself.

kaelcarp

Then you can blow it all on booze.

But seriously, I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that AA is run centrally.

RED DAVE

From kaelcarp:You are totally wrong. AA has a national center, here in New York, that has no authority over local groups. At one time, it issued charters, but I think that practice has lapsed. Here are the principles upon which AA is run. They are less well known that the 12 Steps.Please note, with regard to money, Tradition 12. This tradition is extremely important on a day-to-day basis. AA groups can't even hold a public bake sale to support themselves. Groups die all the time for lack of funds.

AA National Organization has very little to do with the local groups beyond publishing "official" AA literature. How this will continue with the Big Book, etc., available on the Internet is anyone's guess.

AA Big Book

It would be a waste of my time, and psychologically uncool for me to "defend" AA. Two days ago, I was sober fourteen years. You don't like AA, don't join. You got questions, send me a pm. I'll answer.

RED DAVE

MrFurious76

The AA groups themselves don't get the grant money, the counseling organizations do. What do the counseling centers use? AA. If you don't use AA teaching in your counseling centers in my area, you will not get any grants and will be met with much hostility locally. Should have clarified, AA and "addiction is a disease" is so wrapped into counseling it's hard for me to seperate them

Oh, and the people I counseled don't have a choice to join or not join AA. It's either that, or go back to jail/juvie. Considering the teachings of AA are so foreign to them and the failure rate is so high, something needs to be done. In the long run they just end up back in jail anyways. I still remember having no answer when a kid brought up that if your higher power is not god, and it can be the AA program itself...why couldn't his higher power be national socialism, capitalism or even a doorknob company. I ended up telling him to just make his higher power himself, because he is the only thing that would keep himself sober and out of trouble.

greyline

And therein lies the problem with AA, imo. It doesn't matter if you keep drinking, just as long as you keep coming to meetings, keep working the program, keep talking the talk... The 12-step program, which contains no steps about how to stop drinking, is all about becoming addicted to the 12-step program.