bacht

The problem is that all we have to work with are texts. There are no physical remains for any Christian activity during the time the NT was being created. The only proof for the existence of Jesus or Paul is in church writings, which is basically no proof.

It is possible that there was a Jesus who taught things such as recorded in the gospels. It is equally possible that Jesus never existed and that his words were taken from scripture or simply invented. Paul and the other followers are the same.

There is no witness to any of the gospels until well into the 2nd C, generations after the original believers were gone. There is no witness to Paul until well into the 2nd C. If mountainmen is correct there is no external (non-Christian) witness to any church activity until the 3rd or 4th C.

storytime

Jesus may have indeed been referring to himself and his teaching, but he and his teaching remained within his Judaism. "Salvation is of the Jews". There is no textual evidence in the NT that shows Jesus making a new covenant with uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles. You also fail to recognize or admit that Jesus is speaking to his Jewish brethren when he told them he was the way, truth and life, and this because his interpretation of law and Jewish tradtion was different than what the Pharisees and Sadducees were teaching their own disciples. Jesus told his followers[disciples] not to call anyone else their Lord or master, for they were to leave behind their past knowledge in Judaism and follow his Jewish teaching only. Jesus believed to get to the father was by his teaching and not the Pharisees whom he declared as children of the devil.

Jesus was the head of his Jewish followers. Any Gentiles who desired to follow Jesus would have been required to keep the same laws as Jesus in circumcision and commandments estblished for Israel. Jesus changed nothing concerning these required protocols, and any Gentiles who converted would not remain in Gentile identity, but they would naturally take on the identity of Jesus, Jewish.

The representation I give of Jesus is Jewish. You attempt to transform him into a Gentile and Christian. However, Jesus remained Jewish. In the lifetime of Jesus there were no "christians". There were Jews and Gentiles. Jesus debated laws with Pharisees, Sadducees and elders who were Jewish. He did not debate laws and covenants with any Gentiles. He was not sent to Gentiles, he was sent to none but the lost sheep in the house of Israel.

Jesus divided Jews from Jews. Fathers against sons, mothers against daughters, etc., and at no time did Jesus go into Rome and start dividing the Roman Senate from the Roman elders in the House of Commons (or whatever governing body the Romans ruled themselves by).

Why did Jesus argue with Pharisees? Maybe because the Pharisees were taught from different books. Were the Pharisees teaching from the Babylonian Talmud and Jesus was teaching from Torah scripts of Moses law of commandments and old prophet sayings from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc. Obviously there is a difference in teachings of Jesus and that of the Pharisees. But none of that argumentative scene has anything to do with Gentiles, its a purely Jewish scenerio storied to fit the Jewish people.

Why can't you give Jesus back to the Jews and be satisfied in freedom from Judaism? :huh:

sschlichter

Proof of what, that the Christians were Jewish or Gentile?

sschlichter

What do you care?

I showed you that Jesus told the Pharisees that the Kingdom was going to be taken away from them. You did not respond. here it is again in case you get a chance to read it this time.

(Matt 21:43) For this reason I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
(Matt 21:44) The one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, and the one on whom it falls will be crushed."
(Matt 21:45) When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they realized that he was speaking about them.


This is in the NT,


(Acts 10:1)
Now there was a man in Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort.
(Acts 10:2) He was a devout, God-fearing man, as was all his household; he did many acts of charity for the people and prayed to God regularly.
(Acts 10:3) About three o'clock one afternoon he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God who came in and said to him, "Cornelius."
(Acts 10:4) Staring at him and becoming greatly afraid, Cornelius replied, "What is it, Lord?" The angel said to him, "Your prayers and your acts of charity have gone up as a memorial before God.
(Acts 10:5) Now send men to Joppa and summon a man named Simon, who is called Peter.
(Acts 10:6) This man is staying as a guest with a man named Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea."
(Acts 10:7) When the angel who had spoken to him departed, Cornelius called two of his personal servants and a devout soldier from among those who served him,
(Acts 10:8) and when he had explained everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.
(Acts 10:9) About noon the next day, while they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.
(Acts 10:10) He became hungry and wanted to eat, but while they were preparing the meal, a trance came over him.
(Acts 10:11) He saw heaven opened and an object something like a large sheet descending, being let down to earth by its four corners.
(Acts 10:12) In it were all kinds of four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth and wild birds.
(Acts 10:13) Then a voice said to him, "Get up, Peter; slaughter and eat!"
(Acts 10:14) But Peter said, "Certainly not, Lord, for I have never eaten anything defiled and ritually unclean!"
(Acts 10:15) The voice spoke to him again, a second time, "What God has made clean, you must not consider ritually unclean!"
(Acts 10:16) This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into heaven.
(Acts 10:17) Now while Peter was puzzling over what the vision he had seen could signify, the men sent by Cornelius had learned where Simon's house was and approached the gate.
(Acts 10:18) They called out to ask if Simon, known as Peter, was staying there as a guest.
(Acts 10:19) While Peter was still thinking seriously about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Look! Three men are looking for you.
(Acts 10:20) But get up, go down, and accompany them without hesitation, because I have sent them."
(Acts 10:21) So Peter went down to the men and said, "Here I am, the person you're looking for. Why have you come?"
(Acts 10:22) They said, "Cornelius the centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man, well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to summon you to his house and to hear a message from you."
(Acts 10:23) So Peter invited them in and entertained them as guests.

On the next day he got up and set out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him.
(Acts 10:24) The following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting anxiously for them and had called together his relatives and close friends.
(Acts 10:25) So when Peter came in, Cornelius met him, fell at his feet, and worshiped him.
(Acts 10:26) But Peter helped him up, saying, "Stand up. I too am a mere mortal."
(Acts 10:27) Peter continued talking with him as he went in, and he found many people gathered together.
(Acts 10:28) He said to them, "You know that it is unlawful for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile, yet God has shown me that I should call no person defiled or ritually unclean.
(Acts 10:29) Therefore when you sent for me, I came without any objection. Now may I ask why you sent for me?"
(Acts 10:30) Cornelius replied, "Four days ago at this very hour, at three o'clock in the afternoon, I was praying in my house, and suddenly a man in shining clothing stood before me
(Acts 10:31) and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your acts of charity have been remembered before God.
(Acts 10:32) Therefore send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is called Peter. This man is staying as a guest in the house of Simon the tanner, by the sea.'
(Acts 10:33) Therefore I sent for you at once, and you were kind enough to come. So now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to say to us."
(Acts 10:34) Then Peter started speaking: "I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism in dealing with people,
(Acts 10:35) but in every nation the person who fears him and does what is right is welcomed before him.
(Acts 10:36) You know the message he sent to the people of Israel, proclaiming the good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all) -
(Acts 10:37) you know what happened throughout Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John announced:
(Acts 10:38) with respect to Jesus from Nazareth, that God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with him.
(Acts 10:39) We are witnesses of all the things he did both in Judea and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree,
(Acts 10:40) but God raised him up on the third day and caused him to be seen,
(Acts 10:41) not by all the people, but by us, the witnesses God had already chosen, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
(Acts 10:42) He commanded us to preach to the people and to warn them that he is the one appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead.
(Acts 10:43) About him all the prophets testify, that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

(Acts 10:44) The Gentiles Receive the Holy Spirit


While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the message.
(Acts 10:45) The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
(Acts 10:46) for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
(Acts 10:47) "No one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"(Acts 10:48) So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.


and this,

(Acts 11:20) But there were some men from Cyprus and Cyrene among them who came to Antioch and began to speak to the Greeks too, proclaiming the good news of the Lord Jesus.
(Acts 11:21) The hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.
(Acts 11:22) A report about them came to the attention of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch.
(Acts 11:23) When he came and saw the grace of God, he rejoiced and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with devoted hearts,
(Acts 11:24) because he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith, and a significant number of people were brought to the Lord.
(Acts 11:25) Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to look for Saul,
(Acts 11:26) and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught a significant number of people. Now it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.


~Steve

storytime

"I showed you that Jesus told the Pharisees that the Kingdom was going to be taken away from them. You did not respond."

So, you just assume that the Kingdom would be given to uncircumcised and lawless Gentiles?

Jesus was speaking of his Jewish followers. Those that he said in John 17, were given to him. Pay attention to what Jesus is saying in vs 12. "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name; those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled."

This is a Jewish story. The son of perdition relates to how the illegitimate sons were not the children of the promise. This has to do with the Edomites, who in Jesus day were termed "Idumeans".

Remember the story of Jacob and Esau? Jacob was loved and predistined to be the seed of promise but Esau was always hated forever, even before he was born, even before either child knew good from evil the inheritance was set in the one seed called Jacob/Israel.

In order to qualify as a son of Jacob you would necessarily be required to undergo circumcision and agree to live by the laws of Moses. Your loyalty would be in that tradition of Judaism, just as Jesus in his loyalty to his Judaism.

sschlichter

As tangential as this is, he is talking about the preservation of the disciples unity that God will ensure after he leaves them. the son of perdition is Judas, whom it was prophecied would betray Jesus.

Here is SUPPORT (an important component to any argument)

If you look at the context of John 17, you will see he is specifically praying for the disciples.

(John 17:6)
"I have revealed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have obeyed your word.
(John 17:7) Now they understand that everything you have given me comes from you,
(John 17:8) because I have given them the words you have given me. They accepted them and really understand that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
(John 17:9) I am praying on behalf of them. I am not praying on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those you have given me, because they belong to you.
(John 17:10) Everything I have belongs to you, and everything you have belongs to me, and I have been glorified by them.
(John 17:11) I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.
(John 17:12) When I was with them I kept them safe and watched over them in your name that you have given me. Not one of them was lost except the one destined for destruction, so that the scripture could be fulfilled.
(John 17:13) But now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world, so they may experience my joy completed in themselves.
(John 17:14) I have given them your word, and the world has hated them, because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world.
(John 17:15) I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but that you keep them safe from the evil one.
(John 17:16) They do not belong to the world just as I do not belong to the world.
(John 17:17) Set them apart in the truth; your word is truth.
(John 17:18) Just as you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.(John 17:19) And I set myself apart on their behalf, so that they too may be truly set apart.

Jesus is praying that God would set them apart as they are being sent into the world. The world includes the fact that they are being sent to be a witness to the gentiles. Of course, Judas is excluded because he just got done betraying Christ. No Edomites in sight. He has not given the Edomites his word, he does not set apart the edomites in truth, and he does not offer himself for the Edomites.

It was a disciple of Jesus that wrote the book of John and his conclusions are so vastly different from yours. To not beleive him is at least a logical position, to not acknowledge his obvious meaning is an illogical position.

~Steve

Doug Shaver

I don't. I do not know what their intentions were, but absent clear evidence of deceitful intent, I will not believe deceitful intent.

I don't see how that's possible. You can't deceive someone if you tell them you're doing it.

Now you're getting into textual exegesis. Or maybe eisegesis. There is no consensus among NT scholars on what Jesus actually said or taught, because the statements attributed to him by the gospel authors are too inconsistent.

We don't know anything about what Peter actually said. Nothing that he might have written has survived, and all the alleged secondary sources are too unreliable.

Doug Shaver

I see now. Please excuse.

storytime

And Jesus said he spoke in parables for that percise purpose, to deceive the multitude. For in hearing they would not hear[understand] and in seeing they would not see[decern].

Then we are allowed to speculate.

We don't know anything about what Peter actually said. Nothing that he might have written has survived, and all the alleged secondary sources are too unreliable.[/QUOTE]

Well that's certainly true. So what do we do with the story? We give our assessment based on what is written in the bible. I use the KJV, revised edition because this is the source claimed as inerrant by the majority of Christians, especially the fundamentalist Christians.

As to whether Peter intentionally lied, we look to his Jewish laws and his laws invalidate his declaration that salvation is come to the Gentiles also. First, Peter had no authority to speak for God as God had already spoken his will for his people Israel to obey. Any Jew would have known this, and Peter's lie cannot then help but be judged as intentional. Also, OT scripts show Pharisees spoke the law truthfully in regard to acceptance of Gentiles; they must be circumcised and agree to keep[observe] the laws of Moses. One law for Jews and converts also.

Doug, feel free to contribute your thoughts. This isn't a private conversation.

storytime

I'm not convinced that the son of perdition is Judas, mainly due to the brother Esau being the son of perdition in the OT , hated by God, denied the promise, inheritance, and no other son mentioned.

Where is the scripture that supports your idea that Judas was prophecied to become a traitor to Jesus?