Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 04-02-2008, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

If you determine who is being quoted above, let me know.

You want me to do the work you should have done before posting? Sloppy doesn't even begin to describe this kind of crap, Pete.

My guess is that it comes from Drews though it seems rather obvious to me that, at the very least, it did not come from any ancient writer. How could you have thought otherwise?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I am a little freer with my information that you are Jeffrey.

If that is an example of what you mean by "freer", please stop wasting everyone's time with this sort of disinformation and put a little effort into actual research before sharing.

Quote:

My information has been gathered from many disparate sources and to the best of my abilities undergone quality assurance exercises in connecting it to specific sources in specific texts in antiquity.

I refuse to believe that this truly represents what you can do with the "best" your "abilities" since I suspect you are capable of more than blindly cutting and pasting anything that seems to support your beliefs.

You can choose to be careful in your research or you can choose to be sloppy. You made the wrong choice here and it suggests that everything you claim has to be checked. Who wants to waste their time doing your homework? I hope that isn't a deliberate strategy on your part, Pete.

Quote:

There is a vast difference between discussion here and preparing a number of theses on various subjects.

This forum is considered one of the "upper" fora and the expectations are certainly higher than the effort you put into that post. If you didn't have credibility problems before, you've certainly got them now, amigo.

Quote:

I am prepared to post not only my checked sources and their references (when I have them), but also other content which is best described as my rough NOTEPAD notes.

I would appreciate it if you refrained from posting such quotes unless you can also confirm the original source. Otherwise, you are just wasting everyone's time. :banghead:

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-02-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

My information has been gathered from many disparate sources and to the best of my abilities undergone quality assurance exercises in connecting it to specific sources in specific texts in antiquity.

Could you tell us a little more about what these abilities of yours are as well as what specifically the exercises are that you employ to the best of these abilities to do what you say you do?

To take some specific examples: what abilities of yours did you bring to bear on, and what specific exercises did you undertake to assure the quality of, your "information" that

1. in his Rise of the Greeks Michael Grant "makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios' was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras" (see here);

2. "Coneybeare's translation of Philostratus' "The Life of Apollonius of Tyana" uses the word "priest" (with regard to Asclepius) at least nine times in the first book" of that work (see here)

3. there is a reference in VC 56 to the execution of a person (see here); and

4. that "The Life of Sophocles ... tells us that Sophocles served as a priest to Asclepius" (see here)?

Jeffrey

mountainman · 04-03-2008, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It seems that you have made no progress in all the time you have been posting here.

On the contrary Toto, it has been an education.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

mountainman · 04-03-2008, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

You want me to do the work you should have done before posting? Sloppy doesn't even begin to describe this kind of crap, Pete.

My guess is that it comes from Drews though it seems rather obvious to me that, at the very least, it did not come from any ancient writer. How could you have thought otherwise?

If that is an example of what you mean by "freer", please stop wasting everyone's time with this sort of disinformation and put a little effort into actual research before sharing.

I refuse to believe that this truly represents what you can do with the "best" your "abilities" since I suspect you are capable of more than blindly cutting and pasting anything that seems to support your beliefs.

You can choose to be careful in your research or you can choose to be sloppy. You made the wrong choice here and it suggests that everything you claim has to be checked. Who wants to waste their time doing your homework? I hope that isn't a deliberate strategy on your part, Pete.

This forum is considered one of the "upper" fora and the expectations are certainly higher than the effort you put into that post. If you didn't have credibility problems before, you've certainly got them now, amigo.

I would appreciate it if you refrained from posting such quotes unless you can also confirm the original source. Otherwise, you are just wasting everyone's time. :banghead:

Look, all this has resolved to an inadvertent insertion of the name of Apollinaris of Laodicea amidst a selection of quotations, including sources of the "docetic belief" and Arthur Drews. Just the name Apollinaris of Laodicea. You will appreciate this is a minor typographic error. What's the big deal?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

mountainman · 04-03-2008, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

My information has been gathered from many disparate sources and to the best of my abilities undergone quality assurance exercises in connecting it to specific sources in specific texts in antiquity.

Could you tell us a little more about what these abilities of yours are as well as what specifically the exercises are that you employ to the best of these abilities to do what you say you do?

To take some specific examples: what abilities of yours did you bring to bear on, and what specific exercises did you undertake to assure the quality of, your "information" that

1. in his Rise of the Greeks Michael Grant "makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios' was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras" (see here);

See instead
Asclepius: The God of Medicine (or via: amazon.co.uk), by By Gerald D. Hart.

Quote:

2. "Coneybeare's translation of Philostratus' "The Life of Apollonius of Tyana" uses the word "priest" (with regard to Asclepius) at least nine times in the first book" of that work (see here)

Toto has given you the links. You need to explain why your translation is better than Coneybeare. I am waiting for this.

Quote:

3. there is a reference in VC 56 to the execution of a person (see here); and

So how do you read the meaning of this wretched destructive act?

Quote:

4. that "The Life of Sophocles ... tells us that Sophocles served as a priest to Asclepius" (see here)?

He received the god.

5. that we have the record of a profane historian writing in the
time of Constantine who was not an "Ecclesiastical Historian".

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Amaleq13 · 04-03-2008, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

You will appreciate this is a minor typographic error. What's the big deal?

I agree that it wouldn't be that big of a deal if it wasn't part of a larger pattern of similar sloppiness. Tighten it up, amigo. Posting crap damages your credibility significantly and only more so when you are trying to sell a radical notion.

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-03-2008, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Could you tell us a little more about what these abilities of yours are as well as what specifically the exercises are that you employ to the best of these abilities to do what you say you do?

To take some specific examples: what abilities of yours did you bring to bear on, and what specific exercises did you undertake to assure the quality of, your "information" that

1. in his Rise of the Greeks Michael Grant "makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios' was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras" (see here);

See instead
Asclepius: The God of Medicine, by By Gerald D. Hart.

Toto has given you the links. You need to explain why your translation is better than Coneybeare. I am waiting for this.

So how do you read the meaning of this wretched destructive act?

Quote:

4. that "The Life of Sophocles ... tells us that Sophocles served as a priest to Asclepius" (see here)?

He received the god.

I trust I am not the only one who has noted that nothing from Pete in the above comes close to answering the questions I asked him.

Jeffrey

Toto · 04-03-2008, 12:35 PM

Asclepius: The God of Medicine (or via: amazon.co.uk) can be searched on Amazon and is on google books. I don't find a quote to support the idea that it "makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios' was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras" but I'm not sure what you had in mind - could you provide a page number?

mountainman · 04-03-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Asclepius: The God of Medicine (or via: amazon.co.uk) can be searched on Amazon and is on google books. I don't find a quote to support the idea that it "makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios' was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras" but I'm not sure what you had in mind - could you provide a page number?

My notes stated p.177-178
See Item 14.

Quote:

Most academic giants of antiquity proclaimed their esteem
for Asclepius and the words of these philosophers, historians,
rhetoricians, poets, politicians and physicians are cited in
the "Edelstein Testimonies". (See Article 02)

1) Plato recorded the dying words of Socrates:
"Crito, we owe a cock to Asclepius. Pay it
and do not neglect to do so." (Plato, Phaedro)

2) Sophocles accepted Asclepius into his house
and set up an altar for him. After his death,
the Athenians called Sophacles: "Dexion" [the
one who receives] because of his reception of
Asclepius.

3) The Neo-Platonists believed that Asclepius was
the soul of the world, by which creation was held
together and filled with symmetry and balanced
union.

4) Pausanius (Descriptio Graeciae, 8:28) that Alexander
the Great dedicated his spear and breastplate to
Asclepius at Gortys in Arcadia.

5) 23 CE Tacitus recorded that Tiberius confirmed
the right of asylum to Cos.

6) Aristides (129-89 CE) ...
"the one who is guider and ruler of all things,
the saviour of the universe and the guardian
of immortals" (Oration 62)

"give me as much health as I need for my body
to obey that which my soul wishes" (Oration 38)

"Here the stern cable of salvation for all
is anchored in Ascelpius." (Oration 23)

7) Julian "Asclepius heals our bodies, the Muses
train our souls with the help of Asclepius and
Apollo and Hermes. (Contra Galilaeos).

8) 53 CE Emperor Claudius granted Coans immunity
from taxes and declared their island a place
sanctified only to Asclepius.

9) After earthquake at Epidaurus in 1st half of
2nd century CE, Senator Antoninus rebuilt the
sanctuary and adorned it with magnificent
monuments.

10) Soranus (2nd century) wrote: "Hippocrates,
by birth, was a Coan ... who traced his
ancestry back to Heracles (Hercules) and
Asclepius, the 20th in descent from the
former, the 19th to the latter.

11) Galen (129-99 CE) recorded the contemporary
building of the temple of Zeus Asclepius
at Pergamum.

"the ancestral god Asclepius, whose servant
I declare myself to be, for he saved me
when I was suffering from a deadly condition
of an abscess."

12) Epigrammata Graeca 1027 (2nd-3rd century CE)
exhorted "Wake, Paeon Asclepius, lord of men ..."

13) Asclepius was everywhere in literature and
everyone was familiar with his deeds. In the
second century he stood at the peak of his
power and influence and was known through
the ancient world.

14) He became identified as Imhotep Asclepius in
Egypt, Eshmun Asclepius in Phoenicia, Zeus
Asclepius at Pergamum and Jupiter Aesculapius
in Rome. [47,48] One might have justifiably hailed
him as Aesculapius Optimus Maximus.

15) Many of his tenmples occupied prestigious
locations such as the Acropolis at Athens,
and at the city of Carthage ...

16) p.205 - Asclepian heritage

Aristophanes, Plutus 639-40:
The chorus in the Greek play 'Plutus' sang:

"I shall sing with all my might to Asclepius,
Blest with his offspring, he who brings
great light to mortals."

[47] Bartlow RM, "The Origins of the caduceus, Aesculapius 1971
The early Egyptian gods, Uzoit, Nikhbet and
Thoth were depicted with a single serpent
entwining a staff. Were Eshmun-Asclepius and
Imhotep-Asclepius a coincidence or a divine circle?
Did early Greek traders take the Egyptian concept
of healing back to Greece or did the Asclepius
cult develop anew in Greece?

[48] Asclepius had numerous other epithets ...

* "Soter' or saviour was popular and was even inscribed
on some of the coins of Pergamum.

* "Philanthropotatos" (the most manloving)

* "Euergetes" (benefactor),

* "Philolaos" (friend of the people)

His religious status was shown in ...

* Zeus-Asclepius
* Dominus
* Deus
* Augustus, and
* Paeon (who was the original physician to the gods)

His medical role is recalled in "Cotyleus" (of the hip joint)

The "Castrorum" was a reference to the army doctors
(these were called "Asclepiads") revering him and
using his services to assist with wounds, illnesses
and injuries.

Alice Watson lists 55 additional Greek epithets.
Perhaps one of these epithets was used to describe
his additional role as the veterinary god.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-03-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Asclepius: The God of Medicine (or via: amazon.co.uk) can be searched on Amazon and is on google books. I don't find a quote to support the idea that it "makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios' was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras" but I'm not sure what you had in mind - could you provide a page number?

My notes stated p.177-178
See Item 14.

I don't see anything in your "note 14" or on pp. 177-178 that demonstrates the claim that you now make -- that Hart, not Graves notes that "the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios' was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras".

In fact, what Hart says here (p. 178) is that

Asclepius "became identified as Imhotep Asclepius in Egypt, Eshmun Asclepius in Phoenicia, Zeus Asclepius at Pergamum and Jupiter Aesculapius in Rome. [47,48] One might have justifiably hailed him as Aesculapius Optimus Maximus" in the second century AD!

So please tell us, Pete, what exercises in quality control, and which of your abilities to insure accurate representation of scholars' views and the wording of ancient texts, did you employ in taking notes on, and using, Hart that allowed you to attribute to Hart something that he does not say and to misrepresent what he claims on the pages of his work that you use in your "researches"?

Jeffrey

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04-03-2008, 12:35 PM	#48
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Asclepius: The God of Medicine (or via: amazon.co.uk) can be searched on Amazon and is on google books. I don't find a quote to support the idea that it "makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios' was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras" but I'm not sure what you had in mind - could you provide a page number?

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