spin

Still more evasion, John Deere. I figured as much.

When you feel like dealing with the following I will take note.

1. that Josephus was actually involved with the Essenes and not just trying to impress his Roman audience with his wide knowledge (which is undercut by the dating problem I have already indicated);
2. that, if he was involved in the Essenes, he had access to any Essene literature, given that the Essenes had a system of initiation which excluded people from inner notions (which would be in any Essene texts); and
3. that the texts of the Essenes were reflective of the content of the DSS.

rlogan

Hi John Deere AKA Joe -

I was wondering about the statement regarding Josephus claiming to be Essene.

I remember in reading Josephus being curious about how much he penned on the Essenes in the section on the "Three Sects". Not much on the other two in comaprison. He was evidently taken by them.

But I do not recall him claiming to be one. Where does this come from?



I don't see what is wrong with writing a book to make money, even if that is what you did. I am not saying that you did. Regardless, ideas stand or fall on their own merits.

Ted Hoffman

I think this is pretty damaging to Atwill's theory.

jakejonesiv

I read Joe's book, and do not buy into the hypothesis, but I still am glad that I read it.

A version of the first couple of chapters of Atwill's book is currently online at http://tinyurl.com/bug2n .

The two most entertaining suggestions are Cannibal Mary and Fishers of men. :rolling:

Jake Jones

Vorkosigan

Nonsense. Midrashic haggadah was common in Greco-Roman fiction. Only there we call it "construction by paralleling" or similar. Consider this sequence of events of Apollonius, King of Tyre:

• In the course of the banquet the daughter of King Archistrates arrives. We never learn her name. She asks about the stranger, who is evidently in intense grief. The father tells what he knows (not much) and encourages her to speak to him to learn more. She questions him, and Apollonius tells her what has happened, and then falls to crying. The girl cheers Apollonius up by promising that her father will make him rich again. The girl's generosity makes her father happy, and he orders that her lyre be brought so that she might cheer him up with music. She plays, and all praise her skill except Apollonius. When the King asks about his silence, Apollonius tells him that his daughter has skill, but needs more training. Then, at the King's invitation, Apollonius puts on a display of consummate musical skill.

What story is that tale paralleling?

E. Cueva commenting on Achilles Tatius:

• "The historical qualities of the novel are based on Herodotus, much in the way [Daphnis and Chloe] uses Thucydides. Tatius starts his novel with the abduction of a woman (Europa), which is the same motif (Io) used by Herodotus to begin his history. Herodotus writes that the Phoenicians were to blame for the troubles between the Greeks and the Persians because they stole Io, the daughter of Inachus, and in turn the Greeks, probably Cretans, carried off Europa, the daughter of the king of Tyre. Accordingly, similar elements in both narratives cause the plot to unfold. In both words Europa is stolen, Crete and Phoenicia are mentioned, and the action is centered in or around Sidon and Tyre."(p63)

"Midrash" is just a fancy term for construction by paralleling from a religious text. There's no damage to Atwill's thesis here.

Vorkosigan

John Deere

Ted:



Philo used midrashic haggadah. For the relationship between Philo's family and the Flavians, see Caesar's Messiah pages 5-6.


Joe

John Deere

Spin:

Please answer my questions.

Your statement was:
“Many scholars argue that he didn't know Hebrew himself�

Therefore your citation of Ulrich’s position that “Josephus did not use the Hebrew bible when he cited from the books of Samuel� is irrelevant. Please provide the citation where Ulrich states Josephus did not know Hebrew. Please provide citations of the “many scholars’ who argue that Josephus did not know Hebrew. (sixth request)

Your position on the relative status of 1QpHab has had the following evolution: “obvious outlier� to “fairly clear outlier� to “periphery of the data range� which, ignoring the mathematical definitions, is a completely new concept even from the semantical perspective and begs the question: Why would an element within a group – on its periphery – have no meaning relative to the group? Please explain.

You have not answered my two simple questions needed to clarify your claim that Josephus could not have engaged in typological linkage with the Gospels.

Let me repeat them.

Are you claiming that Josephus could not have been told about the technique from someone else?

Or,

Are you claiming he could not have engaged in the technique because he wrote in Greek – the language the Gospels were written in? (fourth request)

Joe

John Deere

Rlogan:

Whiston - Life, 1,2, 10

Joe

spin

It might be good if you read your own stuff and realised you are repeating your errors. No, John Deere, you do not want to talk about 1QpHab in this case, but 4Q171. (1QpHab certainly isn't an outlier.) When you create a straw man, try not to make such blunders. Big doh! :rolling:

When you feel like demonstrating the following I will take note:

1. that Josephus was actually involved with the Essenes and not just trying to impress his Roman audience with his wide knowledge (which is undercut by the dating problem I have already indicated);
2. that, if he was involved in the Essenes, he had access to any Essene literature, given that the Essenes had a system of initiation which excluded people from inner notions (which would be in any Essene texts); and
3. that the texts of the Essenes were reflective of the content of the DSS.

spin

Josephus doesn't say that he became an Essene, he merely says he wanted to have some experience of all three schools of thought, so he worked hard to go through all three (Autobiog 2).

He started when he was sixteen, went through the three schools, then spent three years in the desert with Bannus until he was 19.


spin