Stephen T-B

My understabding of "nothing" is - well, nothing.
Absence of anything at all.
In an absence of anything at all, there's obviously no deity and nowhere for a diety to exist.

In order to believe in a god which existed before the universe, one is obliged to believe there was "Something-in-a-somewhere" (rather obviously...) But this "Something" does not have a physical existence, so the "somewhere" does not have one either.

It is therefore divorced from the space-time continuum, which is defined by its physicality.

Divorced from the space-time continuum requires it to "inhabit" a completely different kind of bubble where space-time is meaningless.

In this bubble, space doesn't exist; time doesn't exist.

So Draycomb's paradox stands: without time, a "creator" deity has no time in which to create time.

MxM111

Stephen, did you read my posts? while I believe the statement "without time, a "creator" deity has no time in which to create time" is true, the paradox can be resolved by introducing another space-time, which is by definition part of God, and thus God could have created our space-time.

Oxymoron

I'm still struggling with this. First of all, it's not exactly Occam's Razor: inventing an unobserved (unobservable) spacetime for an <unobserved (uobservable)> god doesn't really help things, and of course begs the question. Then the recourse to special pleading (that the second spacetime is "by definition" part of god) to avoid the questions begged just tops it off. Not a satisfactory solution, really; it doesn't significantly improve on "god moves in mysterious ways"

Chris Weimer

What Oxymoron said. You can also add in there the problem of infinite regression. If god/his space-time created us/our space-time, who created god/his space-time? At some point, it just becomes a thousand times more obvious that you're just making things up, and god doesn't exist.

MxM111

What I am suggesting, by no means satisfies the Occam's razor. But it resolves the logical inconsistency demonstrated by the paradox. And why can't I include that other space-time into Gods definition? In order to resolve the paradox, all I need is to find one example, just one, no matter how complex and unusual that example is, which explains without logical contradiction how it can be. There is no logical contradiction in that space-time being part of God. That's what I am doing. I do not have goal to suggest how actually it happened, my goal is to see if I can resolve the paradox, despite of the fact that I like it.

MxM111

God space-time and god himself might always existed. His space-time may be "without boundary" like torus or sphere but with more dimensions.

It is funny that I, a week atheist, defend possibility of god existence. That's very unusual for me. :devil3:

Chris Weimer

Why does God and God's space-time get to always exist but ours doesn't? Occam's Razor pretty much nullifies your hypothetical God and his space-time.

MxM111

I agree with you, there is no particular reason for this to be that way. But Occam's razor does not nullify "my" hypothetical god (I've got my god, woo-hoo ), the principle just says that "my" god is less probable concept, without even quantifying how much less probable it is. And let me repeat again, the concept of "my" god here is only to break the paradox, not to make statement of how probable that concept is.

Stephen T-B

I thought the point of my post was that space-time is physical, in the same way that air is Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon Ar, Carbon Dioxide, Neon Ne, Helium, Krypton, Sulfur dioxide, Methane, Hydrogen, Nitrous Oxide, xenon, Ozone, Nitrogen dioxide, Iodine, Carbon monoxide and Ammonia.
Talk of air, and you are talking of these things.
Talk of space-time, and you are talking physical space, physical time.

There is no other sort.

There cannot be a non-physical space time. It is a contradiction in terms.

MxM111

I do not disagree with that and do not assume anything different. The suggested "god's space-time" can be "physical", it is just not the space-time of our universe, it is in some sense of "outside" our universe.