Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Hi Stephan, when do the Samaritans say the waving of the Firstfruits should occur? KB

After the Sabbath that fell during the Festival of Unleavened Bread.

Let me make clear. All of what I was citing was based on the understanding of what the ancient Israelites did. Neither the first nor the seventh day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread was taken to be a 'Sabbath' each year.

Hi Stephan, so you want to take back what you said:

Quote:

Stephan:
The original understanding (= the archetype) was that the 21st was the Sabbath from which the omer was counted.

Try to be consistent Stephan, and when you say something, don't retract it once you realized you messed up. KB

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 08:49 PM

Hey guys, you both are just overwhelming, and it might be best for me to focus on someone of a different caliber. It's been nice and maybe we can have a productive discourse someday. KB

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 08:51 PM

Quote:

The original understanding (= the archetype) was that the 21st was the Sabbath from which the omer was counted.

Quote:

Try to be consistent Stephan, and when you say something, don't retract it once you realized you messed up. KB

Yes the archetype was the crossing of the Sea by the ancient Israelites and their crossing was understood to take place on the seventh day of the week of Unleavened Bread. I've said nothing inconsistent. This is why the Falashas and the Book of Jubilees agree with this system.

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 08:54 PM

As a Christian you should be interested by your tradition originally baptized on a Sunday. The early Samaritans preserve the tradition that it was exactly at the 'goings out' of the Sabbath - in other words, at the dawn of the eighth day.

DCHindley · 03-16-2013, 08:54 PM

If you have been setting up a powerful logical masterpiece I guess it was overshadowed by the snide rhetoric between you and Ken. I really don't want to wade through all of it to pan for the gold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

:huh: You need to read the argument I posted, based on the specific terms used in v.23, Dave.

[T2]'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake [of the mana] and boil what you want to boil [of the quail]. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'[/T2]

When does tomorrow start here, Dave? Did it start in the evening? If so, why does the text talk about keeping the food until the morning? Focus.

The narrator (not I) is making a point about trust in YHWH.

"Bread" that has been found for five mornings in a row, but always rotted overnight if anyone attempted to keep more than the alotted omer.

Now on the morning of 6th day, Moses relays that God is telling them to gather two omers per person that day, and keep the extra omer overnight, and it will not rot.

The next day, they wake to find no mana, and Moses explains that the rule for them from then on is a double portion on the morning of the 6th day and no manah at all on the morning of the 7th day.

Every day has a night portion and a day portion regardless of how one orders them. Simply saying that there will be no manah on the 7th morning has nothing at all to do with when the day starts. It has to do with the period of the day in which mana happens. Nothing in vs 23 requires the morning to be the begining of each day, or to preclude evening as the days start.

Perhaps you need to focus, Boris. You're not seeing the forest for all the trees.

DCH

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 08:55 PM

The Sadducees preserved the older system. The Pharisees were so called because they separated from the original understanding.

stephan huller · 03-16-2013, 09:11 PM

And he's run away ... Ken doesn't want a discussion. He wants to be listened to. And above all else, to convert people to his point of view. Wrong forum for that.

spin · 03-16-2013, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

If you have been setting up a powerful logical masterpiece I guess it was overshadowed by the snide rhetoric between you and Ken. I really don't want to wade through all of it to pan for the gold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

:huh: You need to read the argument I posted, based on the specific terms used in v.23, Dave.

[T2]'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake [of the mana] and boil what you want to boil [of the quail]. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'[/T2]

When does tomorrow start here, Dave? Did it start in the evening? If so, why does the text talk about keeping the food until the morning? Focus.

The narrator (not I) is making a point about trust in YHWH. "Bread" that has been found for five mornings in a row and had always rotted overnight if anyone attempted to keep more than the omer God said was enough for a person for a day. Now on the morning of 6th day, Moses relays that God is telling them to gather two omers per person, and keep the extra omer overnight, and it will not rot. The next day, they wake to find no mana, and Moses explains that the rule for them from then on is a double portion on the morning of the 6th day and no manah at all on the morning of the 7th day.

Every day has a night portion and a day portion regardless of how one orders them (day:night or night:day). Simply saying that there will be no manah on the 7th morning has nothing at all to do with when the day starts. It has to do with the period of the day in which mana happens. Nothing in vs 23 requires the morning to be the begining of each day, or to preclude evening as the days start.

Tomorrow is the sabbath. Prepare for the sabbath by baking and boiling and keep it till the morning. 24 "So they put it aside until the morning, as Moses commanded them..." 25 Moses said, "Eat it today, for today is the sabbath of the lord..." Note that it does not say to keep it ti'l the evening and Moses doesn't say in the evening "Eat it today, for today is the sabbath". It is the morning in which Moses declares that today is the sabbath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Perhaps you need to focus, Boris. You're not seeing the forest for all the trees.

"Boris", Dave? Really? You must be at wit's end, literally.

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 09:19 PM

Hi Sheshbazzar, thank you so much for the information, it truly made my Sabbath today a pleasant surprise. I am in agreement that there is much that can be gleaned from The Name. Maybe you can send me a link for a little more info.

On this thread, I would like to leave the direction that it has gone (we are in agreement about Wednesday), and maybe get back to the OP. Have you considered the three ingredients that had to be cast into the midst of the burning of the Heifer? KB

Sheshbazzar · 03-16-2013, 10:16 PM

I wonder how many participants in this thread are discussing hypothetical practice, and how many are speaking from experience.
The membership of my home congregation has now been formally observing these Sabbaths and Feast days for almost 90 years.
I can hardly express to you the anticipation that precedes each years Paska observance, literally counting down the hours, and relating all of the various verses of the Scriptures in their appropriate times.
All the arguments in the world cannot substitute for this experience, and what is only to be learned through practice.
Baking the unleavened bread from scratch in anticipation is an experience. To get down on your knees and humbly wash the feet of someone you have a disagreement with, is an experience.
Remaining awake, and alert on ha'leyl shemorim 'The Night of Watchings' awaiting the coming of the dawn, is an experience.

Matters that are often never even considered unless one is personally engaged. Matters like when is the first day of the Scriptural year, and of the month of Abib, by what means is it located, and at what exact hour and minute does the day count of the new year begin, -if one is not simply blindly submitting to decrees made by Jewish authorities. Learning what one personally believes about these matters is an eye opening experience.
There are years when the Elders in various of our congregations disagree on the date, then arise the very personal decisions as to which dates to observe, and further how to still maintain peaceful co-existence and unity when opinions, often even between ones loved family members are sharply divided. We work our way through these situations and are forced to learn many things about the Bible and about ourselves in the process. It is an experience, One that conclusions reached in hypothetical discussions or arguments can never approach.

03-16-2013, 08:49 PM	#162
Ken Brown Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Just Right Outside of Confusion Posts: 85	Spin and Stephan Hey guys, you both are just overwhelming, and it might be best for me to focus on someone of a different caliber. It's been nice and maybe we can have a productive discourse someday. KB

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03-16-2013, 08:54 PM	#164
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	As a Christian you should be interested by your tradition originally baptized on a Sunday. The early Samaritans preserve the tradition that it was exactly at the 'goings out' of the Sabbath - in other words, at the dawn of the eighth day.

03-16-2013, 08:55 PM	#166
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Sadducees preserved the older system. The Pharisees were so called because they separated from the original understanding.

03-16-2013, 09:11 PM	#167
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And he's run away ... Ken doesn't want a discussion. He wants to be listened to. And above all else, to convert people to his point of view. Wrong forum for that.

03-16-2013, 09:19 PM	#169
Ken Brown Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Just Right Outside of Confusion Posts: 85	Hi Sheshbazzar, thank you so much for the information, it truly made my Sabbath today a pleasant surprise. I am in agreement that there is much that can be gleaned from The Name. Maybe you can send me a link for a little more info. On this thread, I would like to leave the direction that it has gone (we are in agreement about Wednesday), and maybe get back to the OP. Have you considered the three ingredients that had to be cast into the midst of the burning of the Heifer? KB

03-16-2013, 10:16 PM	#170
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	I wonder how many participants in this thread are discussing hypothetical practice, and how many are speaking from experience. The membership of my home congregation has now been formally observing these Sabbaths and Feast days for almost 90 years. I can hardly express to you the anticipation that precedes each years Paska observance, literally counting down the hours, and relating all of the various verses of the Scriptures in their appropriate times. All the arguments in the world cannot substitute for this experience, and what is only to be learned through practice. Baking the unleavened bread from scratch in anticipation is an experience. To get down on your knees and humbly wash the feet of someone you have a disagreement with, is an experience. Remaining awake, and alert on ha'leyl shemorim 'The Night of Watchings' awaiting the coming of the dawn, is an experience. Matters that are often never even considered unless one is personally engaged. Matters like when is the first day of the Scriptural year, and of the month of Abib, by what means is it located, and at what exact hour and minute does the day count of the new year begin, -if one is not simply blindly submitting to decrees made by Jewish authorities. Learning what one personally believes about these matters is an eye opening experience. There are years when the Elders in various of our congregations disagree on the date, then arise the very personal decisions as to which dates to observe, and further how to still maintain peaceful co-existence and unity when opinions, often even between ones loved family members are sharply divided. We work our way through these situations and are forced to learn many things about the Bible and about ourselves in the process. It is an experience, One that conclusions reached in hypothetical discussions or arguments can never approach.

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