mountainman

Dear Jeffrey,

How kind of you for asking this question, and others. Yes, I have read various works from this group.

For commentary on Apollonius see Maria Dzielska. Here is a list of books (taken from various sources):


The Mystic Rites or Concerning Sacrifices.
[The full title is given by Eudocia, Ionia; ed. Villoison (Venet 1781) p 57]

This treatise is mentioned by Philostratus (iii 41; iv 19),
who tells us that it set down the proper method of sacrifice
to every God, the proper hours of prayer and offering.
It was in wide circulation, and Philostratus had come across
copies of it in many temples and cities,
and in the libraries of philosophers.

Several fragments of it have been preserved, [See Zeller, Phil d Griech, v 127]
the most important of which is to be found in Eusebius,
[Præparat. Evangel., iv 12-13; ed Dindorf (Leipzig 1867), i 176, 177]
and is to this effect:

“ ‘Tis best to make no sacrifice to God at all,
no lighting of a fire,
no calling Him by any name
that men employ for things to sense.

For God is over all, the first;
and only after Him do come the other Gods.
For He doth stand in need of naught
e’en from the Gods,
much less from us small men -
naught that the earth brings forth,
nor any life she nurseth,
or even any thing the stainless air contains.

The only fitting sacrifice to God
is man’s best reason,
and not the word
that comes from out his mouth.

“We men should ask the best of beings
through the best thing in us,
for what is good -
mean by means of mind,
for mind needs no material things
to make its prayer.
So then, to God, the mighty One,
who’s over all,
no sacrifice should ever be lit up.”

Noack [Psyche, I ii.5.] tells us that scholarship
is convinced of the genuineness of this fragment.
This book, as we have seen, was widely circulated
and held in the highest respect, and it said that
its rules were engraved on brazen pillars
at Byzantium. [Noack, ibid.]


Sirr al-Khal�*qa (The Secret of Creation)
NB: Extended title - Sirr al-Khal�*qa wa San‘at at-Tab�*‘at
(The Secret of Creation and the Craft of Nature)

This work was derived by Apollonius (in Arabic Bal�*nús) according
to Jábir ibn Hayyán (722-815) from the Kitáb al-‘Ilal (The Book
of Causes) of Hermes. It ranges from explaining the metaphysical
origin of the universe to considerations on the ontological
categories of the world and the nature of the human soul.

The Arabic version of this book is no doubt based on an original
written in Syriac, Bal�*nús’ native tongue. A Christian monk of
Neapolis in Palestine named Sájiyús states that he translated
the work (into Arabic?)

"so that those who remain after me
may have the benefit of reading it."

- Bal�*nús, Sirr al-Khal�*qa wa San‘at at-Tab�*‘at (Kitáb al-‘Ilal),
ed. Ursula Weisser (Aleppo, Syria: University of Aleppo, 1979)
p. 100

According to the account recorded in the introduction to the
Sirr al-Khal�*qa, Bal�*nús discovered both the Emerald Tablet of
Hermes and the "Book of Causes" while exploring a crypt beneath
a statue of Hermes:

"Thus, I found myself across from an old man
seated upon a golden throne who was holding in his hand
an emerald Tablet on which was written:
“Here is the craft of nature.”
And in front of him was a book on which was written:
“Here is the secret of creation and
the science of the causes of all things.”

With complete trust I took the book [and the Tablet] and
went out from the crypt. Thereafter, with the help of the book,
I was able to learn the secrets of creation, and through the
Tablet, I succeeded in understanding the craft of nature.

- Bal�*nús, Sirr al-Khal�*qa, p.7.


There is another story in Philostratus (viii, 19-20), where
Apollonius enters a cave at the temple of Trophonius in Greece
to visit its oracle, declaring that his purpose is "in the
interests of philosophy." After seven days, he returns to his
companions, carrying a book of philosophy supposedly conformable
to the teachings of Pythagoras. Philostratus says that this book,
along with the letters of Apollonius, was later entrusted to the
care of the emperor Hadrian and kept in his palace at Antium.

The full text of the Emerald Tablet can be found
at the end of the Sirr al-Khal�*qa.


The Kitáb at-Talásim al-Akbar (The Great Book of Talismans)
Addressed by Bal�*nús to his son, it partly matches up with a Greek
pseudo-epigraph titled The Book of Wisdom of Apollonius of Tyana,
which Dzielska believes was composed no earlier than the late fifth
century, probably in Antioch by Christian Gnostics.
[Dzielska, Apollonius of Tyana, pp. 104-105]

The following extract is from an article by Keven Brown, who has
provided the research on the Islamic Hermetic tradition, in this
article here :

Where did the legends of Apollonius’ talismans come from?
They are not mentioned by Philostratus, so they were either
unknown to him, or he did not wish to speak about them.
Maria Dzielska, whose book Apollonius of Tyana in Legend and
History has been very helpful in constructing this account of
Apollonius, has explained this question.

Eusebius is the first to refer to them in his Contra Hieroclem.
He says that "certain queer implements attributed to Apollonius
were used in his times."
[Cited in Dzielska, Apollonius of Tyana, p. 101]

After Eusebius, references to Apollonius’ talismans begin to
appear frequently. Pseudo-Justin mentions the dissemination of
Apollonius’ talismans in Antioch. It appears that these objects
were so popular that Antioch’s Church leaders decided to accept them.
Pseudo-Justin illustrates the problem in a work containing a
dialogue between a theologian and a Christian:

"The Christian is concerned about the popularity
and spread of Apollonius’ talismans.
He wonders how to explain their magical powers....
He wonders why God...allows them....
The theologian dispels his doubts saying that
there is nothing evil about those objects
because they were produced by Apollonius
who was an expert in the powers governing nature
and in the cosmic sympathies and antipathies...
and that is why they did not contradict
God's wisdom ruling the world."

--- [Ibid., pp. 101-102]

The talismans, which were usually made out of stone or metal,
were placed in cities to protect their inhabitants
against plagues, wild animals, vermin, natural disasters, and the like.
Two other centers in the Greek east where memories of Apollonius
had been strongest, Agaeae and Tyana, were completely converted to
Christianity by this time, so there is no mention of Apollonius’
talismans there. However, surprisingly, in Constantinople itself
Apollonius’ talismans became popular.

The sixth century Antiochian historian Malalas wrote that, during
Domitian’s rule Apollonius paid a visit Byzantium, where he left many
talismans in order to help the Byzantines in their troubles.[Ibid,p.108]
In the thirteenth century, in the hippodrome in Byzantium,
there was still a bronze eagle holding a snake in its claws,
which citizens said had been placed there by Apollonius
to protect them against a scourge of venomous snakes.
This talisman was destroyed by the crusaders in 1204.[Ibid,p.110]

Kitab al-Ahjar ‘alá ra’y Balinas
(The Book of Stones according to the opinion of Balinas)
This treatise by Jabir ibn Hayyan, was divided into four parts
of approximately equal length, called simply al-juz' al-awwal
('the first part'), al-juz' al-thani ('the second part'),
al-juz' al-thalith ('the third part'), and al-juz' al-rabi‘
('the fourth part').

Of this treatise, NLM has a manuscript containing an extract
from the 2nd part (juz') and possibly also from the 3rd juz' .

For other copies, see Sezgin, GAS IV, p. 253 no. 3, and Kraus,
Jabir, p. 80 no. 307-10. There are only three other recorded
copies: Paris, BNF, MS arabe 5099, copied in 1614/1023; Tehran,
Danishgah MS 49; and Cairo, Dar l-Kutub, Tal‘at kimya' MS 218.

Portions of the treatise have been edited and translated into
English by Syed Nomanul Haq, Names, Natures and Things: The
Alchemist Jabir ibn Hayyan and his Kitab al-Ahjar (Book of Stones)
[Boston Studies in the Philosophy of Science, 158] (Dordrecht:
Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1994), pp. 119-162 Arabic edition
and English translation pp. 163-202. An earlier partial edition
using only the Paris copy was published in P. Kraus, Jabir ibn
Hayyan (Essai sur l'histoire des idées scientifiques dans l'Islam).
Vol. 1: Textes choisis (Cairo: Libraries El-Khandji and Paris:
G.P. Maisonneuve,1935), pp. 126-205. The NLM (National Library
of Medicine) copy was not used in either edition.


Dhakh�*rat al-Iskandar (The Treasury of Alexander) ?
In this work Aristotle is made to present the book to Alexander,
which he says was given to him by Bal�*nús, who retrieved it from
a watery tomb, where Hermes had deposited it for safekeeping.
The book discusses, among other things, the principles of alchemy
and the manufacture of elixirs, the composition of poisons and
their antidotes, and the use of talismans for healing.


The Oracles or Concerning Divination
4 books. Philostratus (iii 41) seems to think
that the full title was Divination of the Stars,
and says that it was based on what Apollonius had learned in India;
but the kind of divination Apollonius wrote about
was not the ordinary astrology, but something which Philostratus
considers superior to ordinary human art in such matters.
He had, however, never heard of anyone possessing a copy of this rare work.



A work On Astrology is mentioned by Moeragenes and Damis


The Life of Pythagoras
Porphyry refers to this work, 8 [See Noack, Porphr. Vit. Pythag., p 15]
and Iamblichus quotes a long passage from it.
[Ed. Amstelod., 1707, cc 254-264]


The Will of Apollonius
This was written in the Ionic dialect,
and contained a summary of his doctrines.
[References: Philostratus' sources?]

A Hymn to Memory
Ascribed to him, ref??


Other Works ?(Eudocia)
Eudocia speaks of many other works of Apollonius.

Other Works ?(Jábir ibn Hayyán)?

Jábir ibn Hayyán defends a natural picture of Bal�*nús.
In his Kitáb al-Baht, he criticizes vehemently such stories
of magical exploits and attributes them to the inventions of
charlatans and liars.

If Bal�*nús is truly the master of talismans, according to
Jábir, it is not due to magic but to his perfect knowledge
of the properties of things.

For Jábir and other Muslim scientists, Bal�*nús was primarily
a natural philosopher, and they attribute to him several
cosmological, astrological, and alchemical treatises.
[Kraus, Jábir ibn Hayyán, pp. 295]

Jábir ibn Hayyán also wrote ten books according to the opinion
of Bal�*nús (‘alá ra’y Bal�*nús). A collection of sayings from
Bal�*nús in Arabic have come into Latin under the title Dicta
Belini. There is also a work in Arabic by a disciple of
Apollonius named Artefius, called Miftáh al-Hikmat (The Key to Wisdom)
[Kraus, Jábir ibn Hayyán, p. 298, and Encyclopedia of Islam,
new edition, vol. 1, p. 995.]



Arguments are being made for and against, and the situation is that at least some of the letters are thought to be genuine. See for example Bryn Mawr Classical Review 2007.07.16. There is recently excavated monumental evidence that Apollonius was highly regarded by Diocletian, or some earlier emperor. An inscription of major importance, now in the New Museum of Adana, contains an epigram on Apollonius of Tyana which reads as follows:




I suppose this is a forgery Jeffrey.


Best wishes,


Pete

Doug Shaver

I do agree that an awful lot of stuff that's taken for granted about the Bible just ain't so.

But that doesn't answer my question.

andrewcriddle

There are places where the Septuagint seems wrong compared to the Hebrew and where this can be explained by the composers of the Septuagint misreading the Hebrew. Confusion between Daleth (D) and Resh (R) is particularly important.

In 1 Samuel 13:3 the Septuagint refers to Servants rather than Hebrews due to misreading HEBRYM the Hebrews as HEBDYM the Servants.

In I Samuel 14:40 the Septuagint refers to being under subjection rather than being on one side or another due to misreading EBR region as EBD service or servitude.

In 1 Samuel 19:13 and 16 the Septuagint refers to using a Goat's Liver ! as a dummy rather than a Goatshair mattress due to misreading KBYR mattress as KBD liver.

This sort of material indicates that the Hebrew is primary and the Septuagint a (sometimes mistaken) translation.

Andrew Criddle

Ben C Smith

How odd that the 72 independently offered the same mistakes in their inspired translation.

Ben.

patcleaver

Yes, I read your article The intensifying infinitive absolute in Hebrew.
A telltale sign of Hebrew origin or influence.

I agree that Hebrewisms indicate Hebrew language influence, but it does not indicate whether the Greek was derived from oral Hebrew or written Hebrew. The article indicates that the Septuagint is a very literal translation.

However, some translation errors are more likely if the original was oral Hebrew (words that sound similar but were written differently) and other translation errors are more likely if the original were written Hebrew (words that sound different but are written similarly).

I know a Cuban guy named Jesus who only writes in Spanish. If I told him the story of the US v Mexican war and he wrote what I said very literally in Spanish, then it would be full of Englishisms. I would expect it to contain mistakes where certain English words sounded very similar even if they looked very different, but I would be surprised if there were mistakes where English words looked very similar but sounded very different.

If I took what Jesus wrote and gave it to my sister Mary who speaks Spanish fluently, then she could write an English version. Mary would know the story well enough so that she would probably correct any translation errors that Jesus had made.

Now if you did not know the history of the documents could you take both versions and compare them, and determine which existed first, the English writing or the Spanish writing without making any presumptions about which existed first?

If you found a difference between the English and Spanish versions, that could be a clue. If the difference was an English word that looked like another English word but sounded different than the other English word then that would indicate that the written English was first. If the difference was an English word that sounded like another English word, but looked a lot different than that English word then that would indicate that the written Spanish was first.

Ben C Smith

Maybe if he were writing as you were dictating, like a secretary. But I doubt it would contain very many anglicisms if he were retelling the account later, in his own words. (That is the essence of oral transmission; each performance is a retelling.)

I am fluent in Spanish, and in retelling Spanish stories in English (or vice versa) I tend to automatically turn Spanish idioms into English idioms (or vice versa). For example, if the original Spanish story has something like él tiene veinte años, I automatically translate this as he is twenty years old, not as he has twenty years.

However, if I were slavishly translating a written Spanish exemplar and were perhaps unsure how to render the idiom, I might very well write he has twenty years.

Ben.

spin

I'm afraid, Ben C, that you should make your linguistic examples easier here. For someone to see the errors arising from the relationship between Hebrew and Greek, they have to understand them.

Andrew's examples of the Greek translator's confusion with the similarly written letters, DALET and RESH, are a good example that Pat should read. The cause of the error is plain: a confusion about Hebrew letters by a Greek translator. No other explanation.

The acrostic psalms is another that is easy to understand and cannot be rendered by the fudge of rendering Hebrew oral tradition. I mentioned three, but there are quite a few, with examples also in Proverbs and Lamentations.

Alliteration in Hebrew is another good possibility. I've given a few examples, but they seem to have been missed. Poetic phrases like tohu wabohu are also easy convincers. They sound like nothing in Greek. In fact all the Hebrew poetry is lost in Greek.

It's gotta be KISS! (No, not decrepit Gene Simmons.)


spin

Ben C Smith

I agree that your examples are clearer. I was merely adding to the pile.

Ben.

patcleaver

I have read, that the Septuagint is very literal Hebrew - it is full of Hebrewisms.

Yes, I see your point, but there are lots of circumstances where it wouldn't apply. For example:

If you were listening to a Spanish story and writing it in English, for your own use, it would just be easier to literally translate it. If you were planning to use your notes to retell the story in Spanish, then you would prefer a very literal transcription.

It is also possible, that whoever wrote the Greek, wanted to include the Hebrewisms because he valued the literalism.

It is possible that whover wrote the Greek, lived in a Hebrew speaking community and normally spoke and wrote Greek that was full of Hebrewisms.

It is also possible that whover wrote the Greek did not understand the concept of eliminating the Hebrewisms to achieve grammerically better Greek.

spin

patcleaver,

could you deal with my post #11 in this thread and Andrew's post #33 in this thread?

Do you also want examples of Hebrew alphabetic acrostics elsewhere in the bible? Try each of the first four chapters of Lamentations, ch.1 and ch.2 having 22 verses and ch.3 having three verses per letter so it has 66 verses.

How do you account for the Hebrew poetry, say in Jeremiah, when there's no poetry in the Greek?

What evidence will make you abandon this theory?


spin