Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 09-28-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

In this sense, MJers are the last hold-outs for the mythical Jesus of traditional Christian religion. It is the end-game attempt to use pseudo-science to shore up the mythical Jesus against the historical Jesus. And, of course, it is ironic that most mythicists see themselves as demolishing traditional Christian religion, rather than as shoring it up.

Again, it is HJers who want to DEMOLISH Christianity as we know it today by REJECTING the Jesus of Faith, God Incarnate, the Word that was God and the Creator born of the Holy Ghost and substitute and unknown undocumented man from Nazareth who was presumed to be a rebel or an apocalyptic preacher.

HJer are claiming in effect, that the Jesus of FAITH in the NT was a KNOWN PUBLIC LIE.

MJers are merely confirming that the Jesus of the NT was ONLY BELIEVED to have existed and was NOT known by the earliest Christians to have been a mortal man incapable of salvation of mankind.

GakuseiDon · 09-28-2011, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

In this sense, MJers are the last hold-outs for the mythical Jesus of traditional Christian religion. It is the end-game attempt to use pseudo-science to shore up the mythical Jesus against the historical Jesus. And, of course, it is ironic that most mythicists see themselves as demolishing traditional Christian religion, rather than as shoring it up.

Yes, that is an excellent observation. One thing I've noticed about Doherty's latest book is that he promotes a high Christology that evangelicals would be very happy with. "How could early people believe that Jesus was God?" and "Early Jews would not have elevated a humble Galilean preacher!" become powerful arguments for a divine Jesus that evangelicals will be more than happy to use.

aa5874 · 09-28-2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

In this sense, MJers are the last hold-outs for the mythical Jesus of traditional Christian religion. It is the end-game attempt to use pseudo-science to shore up the mythical Jesus against the historical Jesus. And, of course, it is ironic that most mythicists see themselves as demolishing traditional Christian religion, rather than as shoring it up.

Yes, that is an excellent observation. One thing I've noticed about Doherty's latest book is that he promotes a high Christology that evangelicals would be very happy with. "How could early people believe that Jesus was God?" and "Early Jews would not have elevated a humble Galilean preacher!" become powerful arguments for a divine Jesus that evangelicals will be more than happy to use.

No Robots claims about MJers is erroneous. It is HJers who REJECT the Jesus of Faith.

It DOCUMENTED that Bart Ehrman who PROMOTES the "historical Jesus" of Nazareth ARGUES Against the Resurrection of Jesus as found in the NT.

Bart Ehman, an HJ Scholar, wants to DEMOLISH the resurrection of the Jesus of Faith.

This is Bart Ehrman in a debate on the Resurrection.

Quote:

.....I'm a historian dedicated to finding the historical truth. After years of studying, I finally came to the conclusion that everything I had previously thought about the historical evidence of the resurrection was absolutely wrong..........These accounts that we have of Jesus' resurrection are not internally consistent; they're full of discrepancies, including the account of his death and his resurrection.

Toto · 09-28-2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Be honest, mythgeeks. Wouldn't you just LOVE for it to be proven that Jesus never was historical? Depending on your personalities:

1. So you could rub it in the faces of believers?
2. So it would wipe out Christianity once and for all?

I realize that some of you don't feel this way and honestly are skeptical of a HJ based on the evidence you have looked at. For those of you the above provocative comments do not apply.

Christianity has proven itself quite able to absorb any idea and keep on chugging along. Tom Harpur did not lose his faith when he decided that Christianity was based on Egyptian myths.

It would be a harder blow against Christianity if we found the original historical Jesus and he turned out to be a thoroughly rotten fellow, one of those apocalyptic preachers, with a harem of sex slaves of both sexes on the side. But even then, I bet Pat Robertson would still rake in money.

Iskander · 09-28-2011, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Be honest, mythgeeks. Wouldn't you just LOVE for it to be proven that Jesus never was historical? Depending on your personalities:

1. So you could rub it in the faces of believers?
2. So it would wipe out Christianity once and for all?

I realize that some of you don't feel this way and honestly are skeptical of a HJ based on the evidence you have looked at. For those of you the above provocative comments do not apply.

What nonsense!!! It is HJers who want to WIPE out the Jesus of FAITH, the Jesus of the NT, God Incarnate Born of the Holy Ghost.

This is the BLATANT hypocrisy that we are FACED with day after day by HJers.

The QUEST for the "historical Jesus" is a REJECTION of the resurrected Myth Jesus .

The "historical Jesus" of Nazareth is based on the PREMISE that the NT Jesus was a KNOWN PUBLIC LIE and DECEPTION both by the FOLLOWERS of the "historical Jesus" and by LATER CONVERTS.

The "historical Jesus" of Nazareth is based on the PREMISE that people of antiquity, including Jews and Romans, had DOCUMENTED evidence in the writings of Josephus that Jesus was an ordinary Jewish man but still worshiped him as a God contrary to Jewish Law.

Please, please, please Stop spouting your propaganda.

The "historical Jesus" of Nazareth is TOTALLY CONTRARY to the NICENE CREED of the Roman Church.

MJers only say that Gods are MYTHS and the Roman Church say the Jesus of Faith was God Incarnate.

The Jesus of Faith is MYTH. That is all.

MJers don't have to add, remove, or alter anything in the NT.

"Paul" claimed he was NOT the apostle of a man. See Galatians 1.1

Well, "Paul" was the apostle of MYTH Jesus. That's all.

The Roman Church claimed Jesus is God.

Well, Jesus of the Roman Church is MYTH. That's all.

TedM, please stop your OBVIOUS hypocrisy. HJ of Nazareth is a REJECTION of the TEACHINGS of the Pope of Rome.

HJERS want to RUB HJ of Nazareth in the Face of the Pope and the Roman Church and wipe out Christianity as we know it today.

Quote:

HJERS want to RUB HJ of Nazareth in the Face of the Pope and the Roman Church and wipe out Christianity as we know it today

No, people that say Jesus was a human being like any other are stating orthodox Catholic doctrine and the pope agrees with it. It is a truncated doctrinal statement, but it is accurate and orthodox.

People that say Jesus was a human being like any other and also fully god as part of the holy trinity are stating orthodox catholic doctrine and the pope agrees with it. It is the full doctrinal statement.

People that say Jesus was a human being like any other and nothing more than human are not stating the catholic doctrine accurately.The pope disagrees with that one

aa5874 · 09-28-2011, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

No, people that say Jesus was a human being like any other are stating orthodox Catholic doctrine and the pope agrees with it. It is a truncated doctrinal statement, but it is accurate and orthodox.

People that say Jesus was a human being like any other and also fully god as part of the holy trinity are stating orthodox catholic doctrine and the pope agrees with it. It is the full doctrinal statement.

People that say Jesus was a human being like any other and nothing more than human are not stating the catholic doctrine accurately.The pope disagrees with that one

Look, if you want to be taken seriously you cannot be making illogical statements.

Your first and last statements are CONTRADICTORY.

Your first and second statements are CONTRADICTORY.

ALL your statements TAKEN TOGETHER are ILLOGICAL.

Please review what you write before you post.

Iskander · 09-28-2011, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

No, people that say Jesus was a human being like any other are stating orthodox Catholic doctrine and the pope agrees with it. It is a truncated doctrinal statement, but it is accurate and orthodox.

People that say Jesus was a human being like any other and also fully god as part of the holy trinity are stating orthodox catholic doctrine and the pope agrees with it. It is the full doctrinal statement.

People that say Jesus was a human being like any other and nothing more than human are not stating the catholic doctrine accurately.The pope disagrees with that one

Look, if you want to be taken seriously you cannot be making illogical statements.

Your first and last statements are CONTRADICTORY.

Your first and second statements are CONTRADICTORY.

ALL your statements TAKEN TOGETHER are ILLOGICAL.

Please review what you write before you post.

Why is it a contradiction?

The official catholic doctrine is that of the holy Trinity which says that Jesus is a man like any other and also fully god and Holy Spirit

What do you say is the official catholic doctrine?

aa5874 · 09-28-2011, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

No, people that say Jesus was a human being like any other are stating orthodox Catholic doctrine and the pope agrees with it. It is a truncated doctrinal statement, but it is accurate and orthodox.

People that say Jesus was a human being like any other and also fully god as part of the holy trinity are stating orthodox catholic doctrine and the pope agrees with it. It is the full doctrinal statement.

People that say Jesus was a human being like any other and nothing more than human are not stating the catholic doctrine accurately.The pope disagrees with that one

Look, if you want to be taken seriously you cannot be making illogical statements.

Your first and last statements are CONTRADICTORY.

Your first and second statements are CONTRADICTORY.

ALL your statements TAKEN TOGETHER are ILLOGICAL.

Please review what you write before you post.

Why is it a contradiction?

The official catholic doctrine is that of the holy Trinity which says that Jesus is a man like any other and also fully god and Holy Spirit

What do you say is the official catholic doctrine?

Come on!!! What is a 100% man and a 100% god?

A CONTRADICTION.

Tell the Catholics. They don't know.

Iskander · 09-28-2011, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Why is it a contradiction?

The official catholic doctrine is that of the holy Trinity which says that Jesus is a man like any other and also fully god and Holy Spirit

What do you say is the official catholic doctrine?

Come on!!! What is a 100% man and a 100% god?

A CONTRADICTION.

Tell the Catholics. They don't know.

I am stating the official doctrine as a comment on your post. See #65. It is an impenetrable mystery.

Quote:

The Dual Nature of Jesus Christ

Jesus is fully God

The New Testament continuously insists that Jesus Christ is God:
• He was God before he was born in the flesh: "In the beginning was the Word ... and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
• After his human birth he continued to be God. On earth, Jesus forgave sins (Mark 2:5-7), something only God can do. He claimed divinity (John 8:58) and thus equality with God (John 10:28-30). These claims led to charges of blasphemy (Matthew 26:63-66) and death by crucifixion.
• After his resurrection, he continues to be God. Thomas called the risen Jesus "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).
• The author of Hebrews, quoting Psalm 104, says of Jesus, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever" (Hebrews 1:8).

Jesus is fully human

The New Testament also insists that Jesus is in every sense a human being, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15). John wrote, "The Word became flesh" (John 1:14), and in his epistles John attacked denials of Jesus' humanity as demonic heresy (1 John 4:1-3; 2 John 7-11).

Throughout the Gospels we see Jesus operating within the confines of human flesh. He was born of a woman and grew up in a human family. He often got tired, and he hungered. At the end of his life, suffering the excruciating pain of crucifixion, he cried out in a human way, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46).

That Jesus Christ is fully human is of great importance to us. This truth tells us that in order to save us, God became one of us. To do so he did not abandon his divinity (only God can save us), but he fully clothed himself with humanity.

That Jesus is both God and human is a mystery beyond our limited experience. Yet no other explanation upholds all that Scripture says about Jesus Christ. Understanding this essential truth is more than an intellectual exercise. It involves appreciating the great depths of God's love for us.
Jesus, conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of a woman (Matthew 1:20), was the union of God and humankind for the express purpose of providing a Savior for us (verse 21). This Savior would have a vital and unique quality—he would be Immanuel, which means "God with us" (verses 22-23). He was indeed fully God and yet in an amazing, glorious way, he was "with us" by being fully one of us.
Jesus is fully God and fully human.

http://www.gci.org/Jesus/dualnature

aa5874 · 09-28-2011, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Why is it a contradiction?

The official catholic doctrine is that of the holy Trinity which says that Jesus is a man like any other and also fully god and Holy Spirit

What do you say is the official catholic doctrine?

Come on!!! What is a 100% man and a 100% god?

A CONTRADICTION.

Tell the Catholics. They don't know.

I am stating the official doctrine as a comment on your post. See #65. It is an impenetrable mystery....

Impenetrable mystery, my foot!!!

The Child of a Ghost and a woman is not an "impenetrable mystery". It is TOTAL FICTION.

Tell the Catholics. They don't know.

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