spin

This is not etymology this is association. One thing that you should learn about anything related to Hebrew thought is the way that associations are made. One didn't need a clear etymological link for the connections they made, though it did happen (zadok/zedek). Associations were made through phonological similarity, through synonymy, and various other linguistic and cultural means.

No. And I don't see how you could get to the point of asking. I have ruled out an etymological connection between nazwraios and Nazareth and I have said that there is a linguistic connection between nazarhnos and Nazareth, though not a direct one: they are based on the same source, the verb NCR.

Mine was a philological argument that linked Samson's birth (13:5 etc.) with that of Jesus (as per Mt 2:23), part of which said that the notion of "saving" made the association stronger between the two due to the reference to saving his people, as an indirect explanation of the name of Jesus.

Making sense is not a sufficient criterion. Most theories make sense, few are correct. How one could ever verify such a scenario beats me.

I would think that Zindler is paying too much lipservice to nt literature. (Remember that our earliest epigraphic evidence for Nazareth comes from a list of Jewish priestly families.)

Have fun.


spin

Ted Hoffman

Spin,
Your points are well taken. I appreciate your insightful inputs. I am definitely writing a paper on this. The issues are becoming clearer to me.

Ted Hoffman

I have been mulling over this issue. Spin's approach is superior because its based on the texts - the Alexandrian texts - which, presumably, are frozen in the state they were before scribes who had been influenced by second century ideas defaced the words in question.

Zindler references sources that, I assume, derive their understanding from the texts as they are, after post-2nd century theology had contaminated them.

spin writes:
"He is simply mistaken when he says that the Vorlage of nazwraios "had to have a tsade not a zayin". There is no "had to" about it. The word in Greek has a zeta which intimates a zayin in the original and we only have the Greek here to go by. Nevertheless, I have already posted a few examples where a tsade is in fact transliterated as a zeta (suggesting a zayin) and not a sigma (as expected from a tsade). But if he really did believe his own logic, he'd have to wonder why Nazareth in the nt is always written with a zeta and not a single example of a sigma. He has shot himself in the foot here...in most cases the Hebrew tsade is transliterated into Greek as zeta, though exceptions can be found, eg Gen 13:10 Zoar, Heb: C`R and Grk Zogora; 1 Sam 14:4 Bozez, Heb: BCC and Grk Bazes.
"

Against this, Zindler had written:

Hebrew word for Christian and Nazareth is NWTsRY. Which is spelled with a tsade, not a zayin as the word for Nazirite[Nazir,NZYR]
Hebrew name for the city called Nazareth is NTsRTh[Nostrat].

Therefore, its very unlikely that these names came from NZYR - which has a zayin.

Spin had earlier admitted the "curious fact that the Semitic form of Nazareth is with a tsade and not a zayin, as we would expect from the Greek zeta."

Over this, spin argues that "there is a linguistic connection between nazarhnos and Nazareth, because they are based on the same source, the verb NCR.

Wasn't the Matthean redactor favouring a Nazwraios tradition that is based on Judges(NZYR), and not Isaiah's NCR (nazarhnos)?

In Gospel of Philip Translation by Paterson Brown we find (with Brown's commantary):

Brown:
"Nazarene (20b): Hebrew ‘of Nazareth’ (NT Greek spelling NAZARHNOS, as in Mk 1:24); to be carefully distinguished from Nazirite (51): Hebrew ryzn (nazir: crowned, consecrated; LXX and NT Greek spelling NAZWRAIOS, as in LXX Num 6:1-8, Jud 13:5 ® Mt 2:23); Hebrew holy man or woman (1) with uncut hair, (2) abstaining from products of the grapevine, and (3) avoiding corpses— the latter two rules of which Christ implicitly abrogated (see Lk 7:11-17, 22:17-18)."

Comments?

More later. I have been searching the web for The Gospel Of The Nazoreans - any ideas?

spin

As this is an error, I had to go back and find where I said it. It was wrong there as well. I of course am the source for the error. The "zeta" above should read "sigma", ie in most cases the Hebrew tsade is transliterated into Greek as sigma, though there are a few examples of where tsade is transliterated as zeta, as the few exceptions I cite indicate.


spin

Ted Hoffman

I wonder whether the Hebrew that Zindler talks of is modern or old? - where the tsade is used more preponderantly than a zayin?

Any comment on the second century Gospel of Philip that says "Nazara is the truth, therefore the Nazirite is the true"?

spin

Zindler and I should both agree that the tsade in ancient Hebrew was vastly often transliterated as a sigma and that a zeta reflected a zayin.

This is why I provided a few examples where a zeta is found in Greek and yet the Hebrew has a tsade. Tsade -> zeta is strange but not unheard of.

I haven't looked into the gospel of Philip for many moons. I don't know how one can go from a Nag Hammadi text back to the 2nd c. without fragments from the 2nd c., as in the case of the gospel of Thomas.


spin

Ted Hoffman

I requested CX to check for me the appearances and the variants of the word Nazar[?] and its variations in the Alex text in Matt and Mk and this is what we have.

NAZARA__________GMt 4:13___Variants: NAZARET, NAZAREQ, NAZARAQ
NAZARET_________GMt 2:23___Variants: none
NAZAREQ_________GMt 21:11__Variants: none
NAZWRAIOS ______GMt 2:23___Vairants: none
NAZWRAIOU_______GMt 26:71__Variants: none

NAZARET_________GMk 1:9_____Variants: NAZARAT
NAZARHNOS_____ _GMk 10:47___Variants: NAZWRAIOS, NAZWRHNOS
NAZARHNE________GMk 1:24____Variants: none
NAZARHNOU______GMk 14:67___Variants: none
NAZARHNON______GMk16:6_____Variants: none

I would REALLY appreciate it if spin could explain, if possible, the presence of the -EQ/-AQ, the -NON and the -NOU since we know the -HNOS suffix.

spin

Nominative -> The Nazarene killed him
Accusative -> He killed the Nazarene
Genitive ----> The Nazarene's dog is on heat
Vocative ---> Hey, Nazarene, get yourself over here.


Oh and the -t/-Q simply depends on the ear of the person doing the transliteration, whether the /t/ in Hebrew is aspirated enough for a theta to be heard or not.

spin

Ted Hoffman

Oh spin,
Man, you are gods gift to us.
Thanks a mountain. :thumbs: :notworthy

CX

Don't want to derail, but I've always been curious about the spelling variants. According to L&S, NAZWRAIOS and NAZARHNOS both mean Nazarene and no further explanation is given. Do you happen to know the provenance of this spelling variation?