EthnAlln

Bravo, Gamera! This is the kind of liberal Christianity that my wife and daughters believe in. If I had any sense that there really was a God behind the universe, I'd be joining in myself. But, alas, as I tell my wife, I lack these spiritual gifts. But of course, to most traditional Christians your beliefs don't even count as Christian. The traditionalists are bibliolators who try to keep all those horrible passages from the Hebrew scriptures that have been quoted on this board.

Since I have no desire to convert Christians who adhere to your line, I won't bring up the more ferocious beliefs that Jesus had regarding hellfire. If one can discard the Hebrew Scriptures, which provide the main context for understanding the historical aspects of the Gospels, it's possible to rationalize these, at the expense of torturing the text a bit.

Gamera

[QUOTE=spin]But you are. What wouldn't you get rid of.

I've seen a good part of the world and try to do my part to fix it. What do you do -- blame God? The fact is famine is caused by human conduct, not God. There's enough food in the world to feed every child. Sound like you should start putting aside your modern conveniences and help others, which the gospel calls you to do. I listen to the gospel. Have you? Or too busy with the lattes?

The answer to human problems are human action: the expression of love. I suspect that's something you don't want, since it means you'd need to stop congratulating yourself and maybe give up some of your wealth.

The answer to living in a contingent world is -- not being human. If you want to live in a unverse without physical bounds, you need to seek one out, but they won't let you in under your current human condition. So again, what exactly are you proposing. What would you fix about the universe?

I don't think you are.

Calm down dude. I prefer to live in a world with other humans. And that means some (maybe you) will make selfish greedy choices (I expect you do) and put their own self interest over poor people. The gospel tells us to do the opposite. Now, what creed do you life by, because it seems you have no trouble living the high life while kids starve around the world. What are you willing to give up? Let's hear it!

EthnAlln

Hmm, I gather you don't believe in heaven. That would certainly be a world without suffering. It is explicitly promised to be such. It would be a world without moral choice.

But you keep trying to saddle me with extreme choices. I've already said, I'm content to live in the world as it is; I just don't see any way in which it reflects the design of a loving god.

Your position, however, seems to imply that some people have to suffer atrociously in order that other people may use their free will to exhibit loving care or indifference. I think you might consult with the sufferer before you go into raptures about what a great plan that is.

For me, a world in which there is much to learn, much beauty to create, and people to share joy with would be about as close to perfect as one can come. It's really a caricature to describe that as "sitting and grinning."

Gamera

Well, looks like we have a modus vivendi. But I encourage you to listen to what the gospel actually says, and not what culture says about it. Paul sums it up wonderfully:

Galatians 5:6 The only thing that counts if faith expressing itself through love.

EthnAlln

Hey, Gamera! Cut it out! I had a very good opinion of you, and you are spoiling it. Please don't make the assumption that the people you are debating with are selfish monsters.

Gamera

[QUOTE=EthnAlln]The gospel doesn't really teach anything about heaven, at least not in anything but symbolic terms.

But let's assume there won't be suffering. That doesn't contradict what I said since clearly we won't be human as we are now in that transfigured state. What that is, I have no idea and don't particularly care. I have a significant existence now, thanks to God, which is human in nature. Who knows what other types of existence God has in store for us? It's not something on the table in this world.

Well, that begs the question I ask. What is the alternative? I.e., what would your conception of a world made by a loving God be? C'mon stop equivocating.

We all suffer, some more than others. Since life is a gift, we can hardly complain on our own behalf. If you want to complain on the behalf of others, you have the option of actually doing something about it.

Is God preventing that world, or are people?

Gamera

[QUOTE=EthnAlln]Spin attacked me personally. If he can't take the heat, he needs to get out of the kitchen.

He has the gall to talk about how comfortable he is and shed crocodile tears for the poor, blaming God, while he doesn't lift a finger to do anything about it. If you attack somebody personally, you can't sit there and claim clean hands.

Avatar

A world that would be more like what the Christians claim it is rather than what it really is. A world where the intentions and plans of God are unambigious, where his hopes for humanity are know to all and where everyone actually has a chance to achieve their potential. Where there is a clear reason why this or that happened, and where the devout get rewarded and the truely evil get what they deserve.

That is not the world we have. We have a world where suffering is the norm, where innocent people suffer the most horrible of fates through little to no fault of their own, and where the vicious and the armoral get rewarded as often as the honorable and kind. Pray tell, how does human action cause rains to stop for years or cause hurricanes to burst on to continents?

spin

You plainly misunderstand. I don't know you from adam. I'm attacking this attitude of complacency that you have merely espoused.



You couldn't know if any tears I shed were crocodile or not. Don't just spout your ignorance.

I'm an agnostic. I don't believe that there is a god, so how can I blame him? Can't you try to use a bit of logic? How can I actually blame an entity that I don't know exists??? Why are you so tied up in rhetoric to miss the argument?

Again demonstrating that you are not being rational, by talking about things you know nothing about.

So, you take a logical extension of what you have said as a personal attack! Well done. For the life of me, I think you are simply unjustified and misguided. I have made no personal attack on you and this covering ass of yours demonstrates the fact that you know it.


spin

EthnAlln

Well, as I already know, you are a very unorthodox Christian, so I can't convict you of any illogic here. But you are definitely in contradiction to Saint Paul who said that if this life is the whole story, then "we are of all people the most miserable." He (and Jesus also, for that matter) spoke quite a bit about the world to come. ("In my father's house there are many mansions....I go to prepare a place for you...")


Well, I think I more or less described the ideal world that I would like: a place where one can learn, create beauty (music, art, literature, etc.), share the joys of gardening, fresh air, the beauties of nature, etc. The Bible is a bit sparse in its description of Eden, but paradise (the Persian word for a garden) is not by itself incompatible with a loving god.


In some cases, certainly, I can do something about it. I can't do much about anencephalic babies, though, just to take one of several million possible examples where it is very doubtful that "life is a gift." If you want less extreme examples, what exactly can be done about people so severely retarded that they can't even learn to talk? We can take care of them and treat them humanely, and we should, but again, is life a gift to them?


I take it that's a rhetorical question. But it deserves an answer, if even another rhetorical question. Who is responsible for sleeping sickness, cancer, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes.... Are you saying human beings bring these things about?