Johnny Skeptic

Why should I when you already did at the EofG Forum in a thread that is titled 'Loving God no matter what'? You conveniently vacated YOUR OWN THREAD because you failed to present good evidence that rational minded and fair minded people are able to will themselves to accept the God of the Bible. 2 Peter 3:9 is pertinent to that issue because if God is willing that some will perish (you most certainly would not be willing that some of your children will be saved, and some will perish), that is reason enough on its own for people to reject him. There are many other good reasons for people to reject God. I have stated them on many occasions in a number of threads at three different forums. You now know that I have beaten you so you do not want to discuss the nature of God anymore.

I remind you that you have already discussed the character of God if THIS thread. You said:

How utterly absurd. The issue of character is THE fundamentalist issue regarding the acceptance or rejection of God. Luke 10:25-28 say "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

Pascal's Wager, aka risk assessment, does not have anything whatsoever to do with those requirements. If a man said that if you refused to love him, he would kill you with a gun, would Pascal's Wager, aks risk assessment, be involved? Of course it wouldn't. Pascal's Wager is an utterly absurd, utterly ridiculous argument.

If God endorsed lying, you would not be able to love him, and yet he frequently commits atrocities against mankind that are much worse than lying. God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11. God punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed. God says that killing people is wrong, but he killed one fourth of the people in Europe with a bacteria (Bubonic Plague). God indiscrimately distributes tangible benefits to people regardless of their worldview. He obviously does not have any more concern for the tangible needs of Christians than he does for anyone else, in spite of the fact that Galations 6:10 says "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." Obviously, God is a hypocrite.

May I ask what about God's detestable character you find to be appealing? Surely many skeptics are much more loving, kind, compassionate, and caring than God is. Trust must be EARNED, not merely DECLARED by human proxies in copies of copies of ancient texts by writers who never claimed to have witnessed a miracle, and never claimed who their sources were.

Your arguments have become ridiculously easy to refute.

Gamera

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;3856523]Well, he has. The gospel is preached throughout the world.

The world appears random. If it didn't, if you could see God's intervention in the world, who would need faith. And faith is necessary to avoid the notion that you have earned your salvation. And that is necessary because salvation is about putting love before self.

Haven't we been through this? Having the gospel, I am faced with a choice on how I respond to it. I leave it to God to deal with how to handle those who weren't given the gospel. I'd note this wasn't even a problem for early Chrsitians, who assumed from the start that God dealt with OT characters lovingly and saved them based on their intent, despite the fact that they didn't have the gospel.

No, God is not interested in helping Christians in tangible ways. If he were, everybody with any kind of self interest would become a Chrisitian. The Christian live is one of sacrifice, not of rewards.

I do, but even if I didn't, it wouldn't change my Christianity.

Man, you can a question a minute, don't you?

I have no idea what happens after death, and don't care. I'm busy living this live in a manner given to me throught the gospel message. It's an exciting trip. As to the Devil, again, who knows and who cares. The Devil has nothing whatsoever to do with my Christian existence.

Johnny Skeptic

Exciting for whom, for babies who are born with severe birth defects, suffer needlessly for a few days, and die? For people who are mentally ill? For the hundreds of millions of people who died without hearing the Gospel message? How can you possibly love a God who endorses favoritism, and who is apathetic to the spiritual needs of billions of people? Your exciting trip is subjectve, and it is experienced by the followers of many religions. What does your exciting trip consist of? Do you ever go to nursing homes and tell the people about your exciting trip?

2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish. Now how are you going to misinterpret that Scripture in order to try to make it appear that it says what it clearly does not say?

If you do not believe that there is life after death, you cannot possibly be a Christian. The New Testament gives many examples where Jesus, Paul, and Peter mentioned life after death. Jesus mentioned heaven and judgment on more than one occasion, and Paul and Peter clearly say that the greatest reward for a Christian is in the next life. You will not be able to get away with only using the Gospels for your arguments. 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." You never mention any books in the New Testament except for the Gospels. As a lawyer, you are well aware that the more that you assert, the more that you have to defend.

Now how in the world do you have any idea at all what Jesus said, and why do you exclude mentioning what he supposedly said about life after death? The anonymous Gospel writers never claimed that they heard Jesus say anything, and they never revealed who their sources were. The best evidence indicates that they wrote the Gospels decades after the fact, which I find to be quite odd, and there is good evidence that some of the Gospel writers borrowed extensively from Mark.

What sacrifices have you made to humanity? I was not aware that you are a Mother Teresa. What does your typical day consist of? What is your approximate net worth? If you sell some of your assets, you will be better able to let more people know about your exciting trip.

Your claim that God is not interested in the tangible needs of humans if false. The Gospels say on a number of occasions that Jesus had compassion on people and healed them, and provided food for them.

But how were they able to enjoy your exciting trip? What about TODAY? When God kills people with hurricanes, they most certainly are not able to enjoy your exciting trip. If this life is all that we have, then compared with eternity, a lifespan of 100 years is barely more than a lifespan of one day. It is only because most humans have a false perception of time, and because humans, and all other animals, have a genetic predisposition to want to survive, that a long life span is more desirable than a short life span, an exception being that thanks to God, some terminally ill people are in constant pain and want to die a peaceful and dignified death, but are prevented from doing so in every state in the U.S. except for Oregon.

Doug Shaver

Why would it be a bad thing if nobody needed faith? What is so wonderful about believing something without having a good reason to believe it?

Johnny Skeptic

How utterly absurd. Consider the following Scriptures:

Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. (KJV)

Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick. (KJV)

John 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. (KJV)

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. (KJV)

John 6:2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. (KJV)

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. (KJV)

Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders. (NIV)

Johnny: It is interesting to note that Acts 14:3 refers to events that took place AFTER the Holy Spirit came to the church. Now why do suppose that after all of the preceding evidence, INCLUDING the presence of the Holy Sprit, that God felt the need to provide even more tangible confirmations, only to leave us with precious few tangible confirmations today, including no surviving eyewitnesses?

Why is faith a good thing? Doubt leads to hatred, bitterness, wars, and a host of other problems.

jakejonesiv

And a red herring in these discussions.

I am not going to chase Gamera through the philosphical briar patch trying to figure out what in the heck he believes (or doesn't believe) when he labels himself a Christian; it is not apparent to me that it corresponds to any traditional denomination.

However, if Gamera wants to lay out plainly his religion (or whatever he calls it), I will be glad to discuss it with him. I have the feeling he might have a few cogent points if put in terms I can understand.

Jake Jones IV

aa5874

[QUOTE=Gamera;3859642] Biblical nonsense.

John 10:32, 'Jesus answered them, 'Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me?'

John 10:37, 'If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Jesus did miracles so that people could have faith in God, and not everyone believed in him. The bible contradicts your belief that if God did miracles today, no-one would require faith to believe in God.

According, to the bible, faith is always a requirement to believe in God, whether or not your are the recipient of a miracle or witness miraculous acts.




If you read the Bible, you will notice that is was a Devilish Act that caused Jesus to be crucified, hence your salvation. Thanks to the Devil, the will of God was carried out and you are now a benefactor of the Devilish acts just like Job.

The Devil has everything to do with your existence as a Christian, if you believe the Bible.

jakejonesiv

Thank you AA! Gamera wants to be a Christian, but run away from most commonly held (and Biblical) doctrines. Thanks for the insight.

Jake Jones IV

Gamera

[QUOTE=aa5874;3860800][QUOTE=Gamera;3859642]

Yep, Jesus showed some people miracles. But the rest of us just have a text and a world that even Jesus says appears amoral and random

Matthew 5:45 -for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Funny, the Devil (whoever he is) isn't mentioned in the gospel message, and that's the only thing that counts, not speculative theology.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Gamera

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;3860223]I hate to tell you this but you just used a text to tell me that the world has proof of God. You didn't show me a fact in the world. You showed me a text. You've made my point.

Good question. Here's the answer:

1 Corinthians 1:29 - so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

1 Corinthians 1:31 - therefore, as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord."

Ephesians 2:9 - not because of works, lest any man should boast.

If accepting the gospel (i.e. accepting the transformation power of God's love) were dependent on proof, then rational logical people could boast that they are better than those who aren't smart enough to understand the proof, defeating the purpose of the gospel, which is the transformation into a loving person.