Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-27-2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The rabbinic tradition repeats this. I don't have the reference in front of me. But the idea is shared.

The Rabbinic tradition repeats what?

Jeffrey

stephan huller · 03-27-2013, 08:58 AM

mary,

Sotah 22b makes reference to Salome being told by her husband 'Fear not the Pharisees and the non-Pharisees but the hypocrites who ape the Pharisees; because their deeds are the deeds of Zimri but they expect a reward like Phineas'

I can find more references but today is crazy busy.

maryhelena · 03-27-2013, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

mary,

Sotah 22b makes reference to Salome being told by her husband 'Fear not the Pharisees and the non-Pharisees but the hypocrites who ape the Pharisees; because their deeds are the deeds of Zimri but they expect a reward like Phineas'

I can find more references but today is crazy busy.

Thank you, Stephan

As you know, I have no knowledge of Rabbinic literature - so, would you be able to date this Sotah 22b?

stephan huller · 03-27-2013, 09:08 AM

also FWIW it should be noted that the term 'Rabbis' show up in Samaritan literature in association with their priesthood. In other words, it is not an exclusively Jewish terminology or one which distinguished Jew from Samaritan. In Abu'l Fath 83:9 - 11 we read:

Quote:

They (= the Dositheans) differed in many matters from the Samaritans, in both beliefs and practices. For that reason they separated themselves from them and set up their own synagogues and their own Priests [Kahinah). The son of the Great Rabbis [High Priest] became their High Priest.

On the term Rabbis and the function of those with this title see Boid's Use, Authority and Exegesis p. 681 note 91. Rabis is the correct form here. The plural is Rababisah). Again for those interested, Abu'l Fath also mentions a Samaritan 'Rabbis' of the sectarian Sebuaeans.

stephan huller · 03-27-2013, 09:11 AM

No idea. It just sits there in the narrative without any contemporary reference point. I can say that 'the reward of Phineas' is an allusion to Phineas the son of Eleazar the son of Aaron. But that much is obvious.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-27-2013, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Who, besides Josephus, says the Pharisees were active during the time of Alexandra? "Alongside her, to help her in ruling, she had the Pharisees, " (War Book 1 ch.5)

See b Botah 22b
BTaanith 23a
BShabbth 16b
Leviticus Rabbah 35:10

See also J. Derenbourg Essai sur l'histoire ella geographie de la Palestine (Paris, 1867) 102-112.

L. Finkelstein, The Pharisees I (Philadelphia, 1962) xxiii, 837 n. 52.

Quote:

Methinks, a lot of the Josephan writing is in support of the gospel JC story.....:constern01:

I wonder if you have read Steve Mason, Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A composition-critical study. Originally published: Leiden ; New York : E.J. Brill, 1991. Studia post-Biblica ; v. 39. With additional material. (181). Boston; Leiden: Brill ((2001)?

It would be interseting to hear how Steve would regard your claim. Would you care to run it by him? I can give you his e-mail if you like.

Jeffrey

maryhelena · 03-27-2013, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Who, besides Josephus, says the Pharisees were active during the time of Alexandra? "Alongside her, to help her in ruling, she had the Pharisees, " (War Book 1 ch.5)

See b Botah 22b
BTaanith 23a
BShabbth 16b
Leviticus Rabbah 35:10

See also J. Derenbourg Essai sur l'histoire ella geographie de la Palestine (Paris, 1867) 102-112.

L. Finkelstein, The Pharisees I (Philadelphia, 1962) xxiii, 837 n. 52.

Quote:

Methinks, a lot of the Josephan writing is in support of the gospel JC story.....:constern01:

I wonder if you have read Steve Mason, Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A composition-critical study. Originally published: Leiden ; New York : E.J. Brill, 1991. Studia post-Biblica ; v. 39. With additional material. (181). Boston; Leiden: Brill ((2001)?

It would be interseting to hear how Steve would regard your claim. Would you care to run it by him? I can give you his e-mail if you like.

Jeffrey

I made no claim! These were my words:

[T2]Methinks, a lot of the Josephan writing is in support of the gospel JC story.....:constern01:[/T2]

I think a lot of things...making claims requires some argument or evidence - I've not done that - just words to the effect that I think.....

Do you have trouble with that?

outhouse · 03-27-2013, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

It seems we are left with the christian literature to give us the impression that the Pharisees and Sadducees were still in operation in the 1st century. But is it true?

Why not?

While much may be Christian literature, multiple attestation would show them existing before the fall of the temple.

I dont think they were hated as much as the Saducees, but they were corrupt and are said to have used Roman muscle to extort tithes from the common peasants. "Woes to the Pharisees" was written for a reason, and I dont think anyone would claim the Jewish governement and those prieslty powers that were in place, were not corrupt while the temple stood.

Theres plenty of attestation

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-27-2013, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Who, besides Josephus, says the Pharisees were active during the time of Alexandra? "Alongside her, to help her in ruling, she had the Pharisees, " (War Book 1 ch.5)

See b Botah 22b
BTaanith 23a
BShabbth 16b
Leviticus Rabbah 35:10

See also J. Derenbourg Essai sur l'histoire ella geographie de la Palestine (Paris, 1867) 102-112.

L. Finkelstein, The Pharisees I (Philadelphia, 1962) xxiii, 837 n. 52.

Quote:

Methinks, a lot of the Josephan writing is in support of the gospel JC story.....:constern01:

I wonder if you have read Steve Mason, Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A composition-critical study. Originally published: Leiden ; New York : E.J. Brill, 1991. Studia post-Biblica ; v. 39. With additional material. (181). Boston; Leiden: Brill ((2001)?

It would be interseting to hear how Steve would regard your claim. Would you care to run it by him? I can give you his e-mail if you like.

Jeffrey

I made no claim! These were my words:

[T2]Methinks, a lot of the Josephan writing is in support of the gospel JC story.....:constern01:[/T2]
I think a lot of things...making claims requires some argument or evidence - I've not done that - just words to the effect that I think.....

Do you have trouble with that?

Yes. By definition a claim is and need be no more than a (testable) assertion of belief or about what is the case (7. "an assertion of something as a fact"). And you did make an assertion about what you think is true with respect to the intention behind "a lot of the Josephan writings" (or is this not really what you think is the case?).

That you didn't back up your assertion up with evidence is irrelevant to the question of whether you made a claim about what Josephus was intent to do when he wrote.

And what I was asking you is whether you had any clue about whether Steve -- an acknowledged expert, and prolific writer, on Josephus (se his his bibliography appended below) -- would agree with what you said about Josephus' authorial intent.

Do you know? Have you read anything he has written on Josephus? book?

Jeffrey

Quote:

Publications

Contributions to Journals

Articles

Mason, SNS. (in press). 'Josephus, Publication, and Audiences: A Response'. Zutot, vol 8, no. 1, pp. 1-14.
Mason, SNS. (2012). 'Speech-Making in Ancient Rhetoric, Josephus, and Acts: Messages and Playfulness. Part II'. Early Christianity, vol 3, no. 2, pp. 147-171.
[Online] DOI: 10.1628/186870312800778185
Mason, SNS. (2011). 'Speech-Making in Ancient Rhetoric, Josephus, and Acts: Messages and Playfulness. Part I'. Early Christianity, vol 2, no. 4, pp. 1-23.
Mason, SNS. (2011). 'Being Earnest, Being Playful: Speech and Speeches in Josephus and Acts'. Sapientia Logos, vol 3, no. 2, pp. 101–182.
Mason, SNS. (2007). 'Jews, Judaeans, Judaizing, Judaism: Problems of Categorization in Ancient History'. Journal for the Study of Judaism, vol 38, no. 4-5, pp. 457-512.
[Online] DOI: 10.1163/156851507X193108
Mason, SNS. (2007). 'Review: Yuval Shahar, Josephus Geographicus: The Classical Context of Geography in Josephus'. Henoch, vol 29, no. 1, pp. 159-166.
Mason, SNS. (2003). 'Contradiction or Counterpoint?: Josephus and Historical Method'. Review of Rabbinic Judaism, vol 6, pp. 145-188.
Mason, SNS. (2000). 'Aufstandsführer, Kriegsgefangener, Geschichtschreiber: Der jüdische Historiograph Flavius Josephus und seine Bedeutung für das Verständnis des Neuen Testaments'. Zeitschrift für Neues Testament, pp. 11-21.
Mason, SNS. (1995). 'Method in the Study of Early Judaism: A Dialogue with Lester Grabbe'. Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol 115, no. 3, pp. 463-472.
Mason, SNS. (1992). 'Fire, Water, and Spirit: John the Baptist and the Tyranny of Canon'. Studies in Religion / Sciences Religieuses, vol 21, pp. 163-180.
Mason, SNS. (1990). 'Pharisaic Dominance Before 70 CE and the Gospels’ Hypocrisy Charge (Matt 23:2-3)'. Harvard Theological Review, vol 83, no. 4, pp. 363-381.
[Online] DOI: 10.1017/S0017816000023841
Mason, SNS. (1989). 'Was Josephus a Pharisee?: A Re-Examination of Life 10-12'. Journal of Jewish Studies, vol 40, no. 1, pp. 31-45.
Mason, SNS. (1988). 'Josephus on the Pharisees Reconsidered: A Critique of Smith/Neusner'. Studies in Religion / Sciences Religieuses, vol 17, no. 4, pp. 445-469.
Mason, SNS. (1988). 'Priesthood in Josephus and the ‘Pharisaic Revolution''. Journal of Biblical Literature, vol 107, no. 4, pp. 657-661.

Reviews of Books, Films and Articles

Mason, SNS. (1992). 'Gabriele Boccaccini, Middle Judaism: Jewish Thought 300 BCE to 200 CE (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1991'. Toronto Journal of Theology, pp. 308-314.

Chapters in Books, Reports and Conference Proceedings

Chapters

Mason, SNS. (in press). 'Pollution and Purification in Josephus’s Judean War'. C Ehrlich, A Reinhartz, A Runesson & E Schuller (eds), in: Purity and Holiness in Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity: Essays in Memory of Susan Haber. Mohr Siebeck, Tübingen, pp. 181-207.
Mason, SNS. (in press). 'Josephus' Judaean War'. Z Rodgers & H Chapman (eds), in: Wiley-Blackwell Companion to Josephus. Wiley-Blackwell, pp. 1.
Mason, SNS. (in press). 'Josephus' Autobiography (Life of Josephus)'. Z Rodgers & H Chapman (eds), in: Wiley-Blackwell Companion to Josephus. Wiley-Blackwell.
Mason, SNS. (in press). 'Josephus as a Roman Author'. Z Rodgers & H Chapman (eds), in: Wiley-Blackwell Companion to Josephus. Wiley-Blackwell.
Mason, SNS. (in press). 'Why did Jews go to War with Rome in 66-67 CE?: Realist-Regional Perspectives'. PJ Tomson & J Schwartz (eds), in: Jews and Christians in the First and Second Centuries: How to Write their Histories. Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden.
Mason, SNS. (2012). 'The importance of the Latter Half of Josephus’ Antiquities for a Roman Audience'. G Hata & A Moriya (eds), in: Pentateuchal Traditions in the Late Second Temple Period: Proceedings of the International Workshop in Tokyo, August 28-31, 2007. Supplements to the Journal for the Study of Judaism, vol. 158, Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden, pp. 129-156, International Workshop on Pentateuchal Traditions in the Late Second Temple Period, Tokyo, Japan, 28-31 August.
Mason, SNS. (in press). 'Josephus: introduction, life, and texts'. A Wright, R Herms & B Embry (eds), in: Early Jewish Literature: Introduction and Reader. Baylor University Press, Waco.
Mason, SNS. (2011). 'The Historical Problem of the Essenes'. PW Flint, J Duhaime & KS Baek (eds), in: Celebrating the Dead Sea Scrolls: A Canadian Collection. Society of Biblical Literature, Atlanta, USA, pp. 201-251.
Mason, SNS. (2011). 'What is History?: Using Josephus for the Judaean-Roman War'. M Popovic (ed.), in: The Jewish Revolt against Rome: Interdisciplinary Perspectives. Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden, pp. 155–240.
Mason, SNS. (2011). 'The Writings of Josephus: their Significance for New Testament Study'. SE Porter & T Holmén (eds), in: The Handbook for the Study of the Historical Jesus, 4 vols.. Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden, pp. 4.1639–1686.
Mason, SNS. (2009). 'Of Despots, Diadems, and Diadochoi: Josephus and Flavian Politics'. WJ Dominik, J Garthwaite & PA Roche (eds), in: Writing Politics in Imperial Rome. Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden, pp. 323-49.
Mason, SNS., Osterloh, K. (ed.) & Gardner, G. (ed.) (2008). 'The Greeks and the Distant Past in the Judean War of Flavius Josephus'. in: Antiquity in Antiquity. Mohr Siebeck, Tübingen, pp. 93-130.
Mason, SNS. (2007). 'Essenes and Lurking Spartans in Josephus’ Judaean War: from Story to History'. Z Rodgers (ed.), in: Making History: Josephus and Historical Method. Supplements to the Journal for the Study of Judaism, Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden, pp. 219-261.
Mason, SNS. (2007). 'Josephus’ Pharisees: the Narratives'. J Neusner & B Chilton (eds), in: In Quest of the Historical Pharisees. Baylor University Press, Waco, pp. 3-38.
Mason, SNS. (2007). 'Josephus' Pharisees: the Philosophy'. J Neusner & BD Chilton (eds), in: In Quest of the Historical Pharisees. Baylor University Press, Waco, pp. 39-64.
Mason, SNS. (2005). 'Of Audience and Meaning: Reading Josephus’ Bellum Iudaicum in the Context of a Flavian Audience'. J Sievers & G Lembi (eds), in: Josephus and Jewish History in Flavian Rome and Beyond. Supplements to the Journal for the Study of Judaism, vol. 104, Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden, Netherlands, pp. 71-100.
Mason, SNS. (2005). 'Figured Speech and Irony in T. Flavius Josephus'. J Edmondson, S Mason & J Rives (eds), in: Flavius Josephus and Flavian Rome. Oxford University Press, Oxford, United Kingdom, pp. 244-288.
Mason, SNS. (2003). 'Flavius Josephus in Flavian Rome: Reading On and Between the Lines'. AJ Boyle & WJ Dominik (eds), in: Flavian Rome: Culture, Image, Text. Leiden, pp. 559-589.
Mason, SNS. (2002). 'Josephus and his Twenty-Two Book Canon'. LM MacDonald & JA Sanders (eds), in: The Canon Debate: The Origins and Formation of the Bible. Hendrickson, Peabody, Mass., pp. 110-127.
Mason, SNS. (1998). 'An Essay in Character: The Aim and Audience of Josephus’s Vita'. F Siegert & JU Kalms (eds), in: Internationales Josephus-Kolloquium Münster 1997: Vorträge aus dem Institutum Judaicum Delitzschianum. LIT Verlag, Münster, pp. 31-77.
Mason, SNS. (1996). 'Josephus' Contra Apionem: An Invitation to Judean Philosophy'. LH Feldman & JR Levison (eds), in: The Character and Significance of Josephus’ Contra Apionem : Studies in Its Character and Context With a Latin Concordance to the Portion Missing in Greek. Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden, pp. 187-228.

Entries for Encyclopedias and Dictionaries

Mason, SNS. (2010). 'Josephus: Jewish Antiquities'. JJ Collins & D Harlow (eds), in: Dictionary of Early Judaism. Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., Grand Rapids, pp. 828-832.
Mason, SNS. (2010). 'Josephus'. M Gagarin & P Bing (eds), in: Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Greece and Rome. vol. 4, Oxford University Press, New York, pp. 4.131-34.
Mason, SNS. (2000). 'Josephus: Value for the Study of the New Testament'. C Evans & S Porter (eds), in: Dictionary of New Testament Backgrounds. Inter-Varsity Press, Downer's Grove, IL, pp. 596-600.
Mason, SNS. (2000). 'Pharisees'. C Evans & S Porter (eds), in: Dictionary of New Testament Backgrounds. Inter-Varsity Press, Downer's Grove, IL, pp. 782-787.
Mason, SNS. (2000). 'Jewish Theologies and Sects'. C Evans & S Porter (eds), in: Dictionary of New Testament Backgrounds. Inter-Varsity Press, Downer's Grove, IL, pp. 1221-1230.
Mason, SNS. (2000). 'Josephus and Judaism'. J Neusner, AJ Avery-Peck & WS Green (eds), in: Encyclopaedia of Judaism. 1 edn, vol. 2, Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden, pp. 2.546-563.
Mason, SNS. (1999). 'Sadducees'. DN Freedman (ed.), in: Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible. Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., Grand Rapids, pp. 1150-1151.
Mason, SNS. (1999). 'Pharisees'. DN Freedman, AB Beck & AC Myers (eds), in: Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible. Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., Grand Rapids, pp. 1043-44.
Mason, SNS. (1999). 'Josephus'. DN Freedman, AB Beck & AC Myers (eds), in: Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible. Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., Grand Rapids, pp. 736-737.
Mason, SNS. (1999). 'Josephus Flavius'. W Doniger (ed.), in: Merriam-Webster’s Encyclopaedia of World Religions. Merriam-Webster, Springfield, Mass., pp. 580-581.
Mason, SNS. (1999). 'Early Jewish and Christian Uses of Philosophy'. RH Popkin (ed.), in: The Columbia History of Western Philosophy. Columbia University Press, New York, pp. 111-118.

Contributions to Conferences

Papers

Mason, SNS. 'Josephus' Portrait of the Flavian Triumph: in Historical and Literary Context'. Paper presented at The Roman Triumph in Principate and Late Antiquity, Berlin, Germany, 4/10/12 - 6/10/12, pp. 1.

Books and Reports

Books

Mason, SNS. 'The Judaean-Roman War of 66 to 74: A Historical Inquiry'. Cambridge University Press, New York.
Mason, SNS. (2009). 'Josephus, Judea, and Christian Origins: Methods and Categories'. Hendrickson, Peabody, Mass.
Mason, SNS. (2008). 'Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary (series ed. Steve Mason): volume 1b: Judean War 2'. Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden.
Mason, SNS. (2007). 'Yosefusu to Shinyaku-Seisho'. Lithon, Tokyo.
Mason, SNS. (ed.) & Barclay, J. (2006). 'Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary: Against Apion'. vol. 10, Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden.
Edmondson, J., Mason, SNS. & Rives, J. (eds) (2005). 'Flavius Josephus and Flavian Rome'. Oxford University Press, Oxford, United Kingdom.
Mason, SNS. (ed.), Begg, CT. & Spilsbury, P. (2005). 'Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary: Vol. 5: Judean Antiquities 8-10'. Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden.
Mason, SNS. & Robinson, T. (2004). 'Early Christian Reader'. Hendrickson, Peabody, MA, USA.
Mason, SNS. (ed.) & Begg, CT. (2004). 'Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary: Vol. 4: Judean Antiquities 5-7'. vol. 4, Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden.
Mason, SNS. (2003). 'Josephus and the New Testament'. 2nd rev. ed. edn, Hendrickson, Peabody, Mass.
Mason, SNS. (2001). 'Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary: Volume 9: Life of Josephus'. vol. 9, Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden.
Mason, SNS. (ed.) & Feldman, LH. (2000). 'Flavius Josephus: Translation and Commentary: Vol. 3: Judean Antiquities 1-4'. vol. 3, Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden.
Mason, SNS. (ed.) (1998). 'Understanding Josephus: Seven Perspectives'. Sheffield Academic Press, Sheffield.
Mason, SNS. (1991). 'Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A Composition-Critical Study'. Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden.

Non-textual Forms

Data Sets and Databases

Mason, SNS., (2006). 'Project on Ancient Cultural Engagement (PACE)'. , 2006, Data set/Database, McMaster University, Hamilton, ON, Canada.

Web Publications and Websites

Mason, SNS., (2011). 'Oxford Bibliographies Online: Jewish Studies: Flavius Josephus'. , 2011, Web publication/site, Oxford University Press, Oxford.
[Online] DOI: 10.1093/OBO/9780199840731-0049

maryhelena · 03-27-2013, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Who, besides Josephus, says the Pharisees were active during the time of Alexandra? "Alongside her, to help her in ruling, she had the Pharisees, " (War Book 1 ch.5)

See b Botah 22b
BTaanith 23a
BShabbth 16b
Leviticus Rabbah 35:10

See also J. Derenbourg Essai sur l'histoire ella geographie de la Palestine (Paris, 1867) 102-112.

L. Finkelstein, The Pharisees I (Philadelphia, 1962) xxiii, 837 n. 52.

Quote:

Methinks, a lot of the Josephan writing is in support of the gospel JC story.....:constern01:

I wonder if you have read Steve Mason, Flavius Josephus on the Pharisees: A composition-critical study. Originally published: Leiden ; New York : E.J. Brill, 1991. Studia post-Biblica ; v. 39. With additional material. (181). Boston; Leiden: Brill ((2001)?

It would be interseting to hear how Steve would regard your claim. Would you care to run it by him? I can give you his e-mail if you like.

Jeffrey

I made no claim! These were my words:

[T2]Methinks, a lot of the Josephan writing is in support of the gospel JC story.....:constern01:[/T2]
I think a lot of things...making claims requires some argument or evidence - I've not done that - just words to the effect that I think.....

Do you have trouble with that?

Yes. By definition a claim is and need be no more than a (testable) assertion of belief or about what is the case (7. "an assertion of something as a fact"). And you did make an assertion about what you think is true with respect to the intention behind "a lot of the Josephan writings" (or is this not really what you think is the case?).

That you didn't back up your assertion up with evidence is irrelevant to the question of whether you made a claim about what Josephus was intent to do when he wrote.

Jeffrey

Really - you can now read my mind?

Did you see the word *belief* or *true* in anything I wrote? Assertion?

Let's be very clear here: I used the word "Methinks". I clarified that in my reply. I think. I think lots of things. So I'll ask you again. Do you have trouble with people who say "I think"?

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03-27-2013, 08:58 AM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	mary, Sotah 22b makes reference to Salome being told by her husband 'Fear not the Pharisees and the non-Pharisees but the hypocrites who ape the Pharisees; because their deeds are the deeds of Zimri but they expect a reward like Phineas' I can find more references but today is crazy busy.

03-27-2013, 09:11 AM	#15
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	No idea. It just sits there in the narrative without any contemporary reference point. I can say that 'the reward of Phineas' is an allusion to Phineas the son of Eleazar the son of Aaron. But that much is obvious.

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