BadBadBad

For once we agree at least on something. I have no spiritual capacity. Therefore, it is not just for me to be condemned to hell by a God that created me with no capacity to believe in him.

We've been down that road so many times, you know where it goes, but it's refreshing to go through it once again. It's good to see you back.

Let's talk about faith. How do you have faith based upon the Spirit? God has omnipotently created me with no capacity for spiritual understanding of the "Spirit" what ever that is? I can't have faith based upon the Spirit because God has created me with no capacity for spirituality. I have to have faith based upon something else. I have to have faith in something else besides the Spirit. What would this faith be based upon, and whom should I have faith in before God will choose to work his miracle on my soul and lead me to be willing to accept his gift?

DBT

It all sounds, so...so... magical. :rolling:

luminous

I don't see this as an example of the "supralogical". If Jesus is God and God controls nature, Jesus can calm the sea. It's a perfectly logical argument. However, I do agree that there are elements to Christian belief that are supralogical (non-christians would call illogical) such as the Trinity or Jesus being at the same time and in the same place 100% man and 100% God. It doesn't make sense to me for faith to simply be only a gift from God. Jesus and Paul appealed to reason when asking people to believe, therefore I believe the decision to have faith is a combination of a gift and a logical decision.

luminous

I understand that this is a biblical teaching (Romans 9 and other texts) but I have never been able to grasp this logically. Maybe this is another one of those "supralogical" things.

Logically it seems to me that God is unjustified in sending anyone to hell. Afterall it is He who created all with the inability to refrain from sin. Now, if Jack is born with the inability to refrain from sin, and is not given the gift of faith from God required for salvation, how can he be justifiably sent to hell? For what? For doing that which he can't refrain from? For not accepting the salvation he couldn't accept because he didn't receive the gift of faith? How can this be ascribed to a loving God? Not only does it seem unjustifiable, but it seems extremely cruel. Seems to me like Jack is getting a raw deal here. Do you have any kind of logical insight on this doctrine or do you accept it on faith alone?

jdlongmire

Hi, Bx3 - good to have a bit of time, again - been lurking and watching your mission of antithesis...

Thank you for confirming the conclusion - consistent Atheists have no spiritual capacity.

spirituality and the capacity for faith are serial events - first spiritual capacity, then faith - as gifts from God.

It should be noted that there are folks with spiritual capacity, but will have no faith.

There will also be folk with faith - but not faith in the triune God.

Now, this is all conjecture based on Scripture, my worldview, doctrine and observations.

BBB, based on my conjecture and your declarations - I would surmise (not judge) that you indeed would fit the parameters of the Reprobate. Therefore God, knowing your potential to reject His sovereignty, just as Satan and Adam and Eve, and before you became a temporal being - has given you over to your own devices that will be the basis of His just judgement of you to be eternally seperated from Him.

Unless He has planned to call you to Him - in which case you will become Elect, regardless of your current vehement rejection.

-pax-

Biff the unclean

Liviu you seem to be a “younger Christian�? than JD. He knows that he is suspending logic in favor of his religious stories and is content to do so.
You are suspending it too but haven’t realized that you are doing so. Take “If Jesus is God and God controls nature, Jesus can calm the sea�? that isn’t logical at all. It’s baseless assumption piled on baseless assumption.
Logic here starts with the knowledge that there is no such thing as “magic words.�? When a magician says abracadabra and a rabbit appears in his hat saying the word was only misdirection to take your attention away from the hole in the hat and the false bottom in the table.
If I were to say “I want it to stop raining and for the sun to come out�? and it did then logic would not indicate that I was God. Logic would point to coincidence. My wishes have nothing to do with the weather.
Logic also indicates that when a character in a story is able to do deeds that no one in real life can do that this isn’t actually an extraordinary individual. No, he’s just a common type of fictional character.
A logical argument would not point towards Jesus being a God because he has powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal man, any more than it would point towards Clark Kent being one.

jdlongmire

Liviu - you seem to be a genuine seeker, thus I have stretched my rule of debating with believers on this forum - actually you bring up some good points.

If God indeed created Mankind without the ability to refrain from sin, then it would indeed be unjust for Him to punish anyone for any sin.

Unfortunately, Go did indeed create Man for eternal communion, incorruptable flesh and with the capacity to sin or not to sin (Free Will as Augustine proposed - posse peccare, posse non peccare) - when Adam and Eve accepted the Serpent's logic and grasped for equality with God, they rejected God's sovereignty and thus they and all their progeny became accursed, corrupt and unable not to sin (non posse non peccare) and required to die as a gateway to Eternity and final judgement.

God, in His mercy, withheld His just wrath and did not destroy all Mankind for the sake of those progeny who had the potential to acknowledge His sovereignty, pass through the gateway of death and enter into Eternal Communion with Him.

He also put into effect a plan to communicate to Man his need for redemption and his inability to provide it for himself through sinlessness - this portion of redemptive history along with additional wisdom writings and prophecies make up the Old Testament.

At a certain time, according to God's plan, He sent His Son - born through Woman, but not of Man and thus not accursed by Adam and posse peccare - to accomplish a substitutionary atoning life that Adam was unable to do - an obedient, sinless life - acknowledging God's sovereignty and not grasping for equality with Him.

Christ then allowed Himself to suffer and be put to death to complete the atonement and pass through the gateway of Death to seal the curse of Adam and allow all of the Elect to be able not to sin (posse non peccare), thus capable of glorifying God with obedience through faith.

I believe that the Elect that live a life and persevere are being prepared to stand before God, acknowledge His sovereignty and have the capacity to sin gratefully removed to become non posse peccare in Eternity. Amen!

Now, this is not a complete statement of faith and doctrine, by far, just a brief summary - if you are genuinely interested, I will be happy to dialogue more.

Here is a couple of good resources:

Augustine's fourfold states of man

The doctrine I ascribe to:

Monergism.com

-pax-

jdlongmire

What a lovely subtle ad hom...

I place logic and emotion as servants to my faith. Thus whatever I think or feel will be vetted against my spiritual foundation, so that neither will distract me from my service to God in Christ through the Holy Spirit.

And am content to do so.

Biff the unclean

…when Adam and Eve accepted the Serpent's logic and grasped for equality with God, they rejected God's sovereignty and thus they and all their progeny became accursed, corrupt and unable not to sin (non posse non peccare) and required to die as a gateway to Eternity and final judgement.

Shall we use a little logic on this story.
What the talking snake (any logic to use on the story so far? A talking snake…Hmmmm?) offered them, to make them God’s equal was the ability to tell the difference between good and evil. So there was no way for them to know that disobeying God was evil because God kept that knowledge from them.
Then he punished them and all of their decedents for not knowing that they should have been good when it was He that refused to let them know what good even was.

Logic?

Biff the unclean

For the umpteenth time, please look up what an ad hom is.
And what are you bitching about? You just boasted that you were content doing exactly what I said you were doing. You aren't going to let logic distract you... we've noticed that already.