Shake

I just wanted to take a moment to remind folks what it says on the front page:


As for me, I like a philosophy of positive atheism. This I believe echoes the spirit of what Roland had to say above.

Biff the unclean

I see little reason to acknowledge much of what you say.
And yet you will anyway.
You express the thoughts of others in hyperbolic terms such as "rolling over", "many people on this board are filled with such self doubt", "kiss up to them" and on and on.
What you call hyperbole I see as taking the sugar coating off of your comments.
I have no idea how you behave in real life. But in my imagination you have left the impression of one of those people who use political correctness as a club. I live in the San Francisco Bay area and you will find no more intolerant people on the face of the Earth than the Politically Correct of SF.
You present your opinions as if they were moral laws.
Cowardliness and self-loathing may be virtues to you, but not to me.

Usually these are nothing but gross distortions of the poster you are attempting to comment upon. I see little reason to continue commenting when I would spend most of my time correcting your characterizations of my comments and others comments.
You have left me with the impression that your naivete is not supported by anything but you self-righteousness.

Roland98

I see your point, but I feel the difference between those you've described and the "immoral" or "evil" or "God-hating," or simply "mean," "rude," etc. atheist is that the great majority of people realize that the above sterotypes are simply that: stereotypes. Certainly among many "fundamentalist" Christians, and even among some that have more liberal views whom I've encountered, the "atheist=bad person" equation isn't even regarded as a sterotype; it's just a fact (of course, I'll acknowledge that this is the same group that may be more serious about the "greedy Jew" stereotype as well).

I think you misunderstood. I'd never suggest being polite simply to make atheists look better. However, it's my opinion that some discernment should be used when posting on public message boards, because you (and the group you belong to) are judged simply by your words--and who knows what effect they may have on someone? And I hardly believe it's a waste of time--it takes roughly the same amount of time to type/say something insulting or hurtful as it does to say something constructive (or even may take less, if you choose to hold your tongue or not post when all you have to add is an insult).

I agree that it may never go away. And any active campaigning won't help; nor would I suggest that. But to act in a sterotypical way does, as you mention, reinforce the stereotype. To act in a manner which is unexpected from those who believe the atheist stereotypes can cause them to re-think their views on atheists.

Biff the unclean

And I hardly believe it's a waste of time--it takes roughly the same amount of time to type/say something insulting or hurtful as it does to say something constructive (or even may take less, if you choose to hold your tongue or not post when all you have to add is an insult).

Please go back to the link in the OP. The insults and hateful things that are being complained about are statements of lack of faith. The parts about hating God is when the atrocities that are attributed to God in the Bible are called atrocities.
He wants us to burn in Hell for being Atheists. His complaints about our rudeness is because Atheists are saying that there is no God on a non Theist board.

Roland98

Yes, I understand this, but I'm talking more about the atheist stereotype in general. Additionally, a few of those insults were leveled against the poster, not at God ("you have no idea of what actually constitutes science. And no idea of why magical thinking is flawed" is not an insult to God). And an early comment in that thread:

Yes, there will be some who hate us because we're not "one of them." I readily admit their minds probably won't be changed, no matter what we do. But that thread doesn't wasn't only because of our denial of God--it also involved personal insults.

Edited to quote only Biff.

livius drusus

I find your sledgehammer methods entirely unproductive and more often then not deeply distasteful, Biff. Are cowardice and naivete the only possible reasons I might react this way to you? Isn't it conceivable that I simply see no reason to crush a fruit fly with a steamroller?

Calzaer

I think we need both good cops AND bad cops in this arena. Biff the Bad Cop beats someone over the head with blut sledgehammer facts, and DC the Good Cop apologizes and comforts and plants little fact seedlings. I don't think either side could be successful without the other.

We need Bad Cops to crack the shell, and Good Cops to convince them to come out of it. Further, Bad Cops serve as a sort of community protector since they're not afraid to engage in confrontation when confrontation is needed, while Good Cops serve as community spokespeople, calmly and rationally taking the mainstream message to the rest of the country when confrontation is neither necessary nor appropriate.

If all we had were Bad Cops, we'd be universally despised. If all we had were Good Cops, we'd be universal doormats. Neither would ever actually get anything substantial done on their own.

We need both D.C. AND Biff.

seebs

Well, that would be one of the best heuristics around for learning about appropriate or inappropriate behavior. It's not perfectly accurate, but it's a damn good guess most of the time.

It came from thousands of years of evolution as a gregarious species. Deal.

Starboy

Theists can't even get along with each other why should atheists expect them to get along with us? If Christianity really did make people as swell as they claim it does all of this would be a moot issue. The fact that so many Christians behave in such an abhorrent fashion is just further evidence that the religion lacks any active ingredient.

Starboy

seebs

I suspect the bad cops do more harm than good, both in terms of making people accept atheists, and making people accept atheism. The "crack the shell" thing mostly doesn't work on people; mostly, they harden up. You need surprises, not attacks, to make people reconsider positions.