Goliath

Mike(ATL),

Ummm...excuse me? You're the one here making the claim that the genesis creation story is historical. You back up your claim.

Sheesh. Can you xians not get through a day without trying to shift the burden of proof?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Doctor X

They were too big . . . just as the unicorns could not fit because of their horns . . . silly. . . .

There were green aligators and long-necked beasts. . . .

--J.D.

Mike(ATL)

Perhaps you're right and I've started too broad a topic for me to handle here. You have accepted the world view that the universe is however many trillion-billion years old and I have not. To resolve this requires a lot research that I simply do not have the patience for at this time. When we boil it down, for me to show you that Genesis is believable and not myth I must demonstrate why some of what you have accepted as reputable science is not reputable. This is a very lofty goal that I'm simply not knowledgeable enough to accomplish at this time. Perhaps I will spend some time in the E/C forums in the future. Likewise, it is unfair of me to ask that you show me why I can't believe Genesis with the condition that we not talk about some of the secular theories of the timeline of the universe. Is it possible to continue this discussion with the understanding that the scientific timeline presented is only a theory and not all-accepted fact?

Probably not, it seems I have tackled too large an issue. It seems the best way to go about defending Genesis is to take one issue at a time, probably in the E/C forums. Thank you all for helping me think through this, I'm very sorry if I've wasted your time. Any discussions we can continue without accepting the theories of any timelines similar to the one PTET presented as fact I would be glad to continue.

What opposing accounts of creation? I only see one.

Quite right, I don't like that word as a descriptor of the holy word of God. I'm sure you can see how that is quite insulting to anyone who values scripture. Myths are made up stories, scripture is accounts of actual events.

That's a pretty picture but I don't see how Genesis tells us that is how the world definitely is. I can think of some of the scripture off the top of my head that, when taken completely literally, would lead to some of the features of that diagram. The problem of course is that some things are not meant to be taken literally. Maybe you could show me a passage that demonstrates this is how God is telling us the world is and therefore shows how ignorant He is?

I know how you all like this answer... God did it? Seriously though, if God is capable of creating the sun is He not capable of creating oil? If God can create the stars themselves, is He not capable of letting us see them? Accepting that God is the creator of all things, Genesis is not ridiculous at all.

Doctor X

That is akin to trying to continue a discussion on physics without accepting the theories of Einstein--it does not work because of the evidence.

I and others have previously demonstrated the P and J stories. We have also suggested the very readable Who Wrote the Bible? to demonstrate them. In fact, I have offered you the same challenge as I offered Magus. If you are not willing to consider the evidence, you waste time.

You propose to wander over to E/C and ask questions. They will refer you to some basic references as well. You have to take the time to familiarize yourself with them or you will continue to waste time.

You do not want to believe in opposing accounts of creation? Fine, then you have to address the evidence in scholarship rather than just claim it. Otherwise you waste time.

Since others have demonstrated that the flood, tower of Babel, Exodus, et cetera did not and could not happen, continued statements without evidence to support them like this:

prove a waste of time.

Do you see a pattern emerging?

Yet he demand child sacrifice, demands genocide, refuses to alleviate the Unjustified Suffering of children . . . forgive us if we fail to share in your enthusiasm for the ridiculous.

--J.D.

Hawkingfan

Criticizing the entire book of Genesis is too broad a topic. But here are some inconsistencies and absurdities in the creation and flood accounts (compiled and paraphrased by Donald Morgan at the Secular Web Library) that I am willing to discuss:

Creation account inconsistencies:
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

Absurdities:
GE 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven(s) and the earth." (But where did God dwell before he had created heaven and earth?) (Note: Biblicists have determined that biblical chronology fixes the date of creation at 4004 B.C. thereby making the earth about six thousand years old. Creationists stubbornly adhere to this timetable in spite of overwhelming evidence that the earth is actually billions of years old. Archaeologists tell us that the biblical city of Jericho has, itself, been continuously occupied for more than ten thousand years.)

GE 1:3-5, 14-19 There was light ("night and day") before there was a sun. (Note: If there were no sun, there would be no night or day. Also, light from the newly created heavenly bodies seems to have reached the earth instantaneously though it now takes thousands or millions of years.)

GE 1:12, 16 Plants began to grow before there was sunlight.

GE 1:29 Every plant and tree which yield seed are given to us by God as good to eat. (Note: This would include poisonous plants such as hemlock, buckeye pod, nightshade, oleander.)

GE 2:15-23, 3:1-5, 1TI 2:14 (Note: Prior to eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve would have had no knowledge of right and wrong; they would not have known that it was a sin to disobey God or to obey the serpent. After they ate the forbidden fruit, God placed a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life" to keep them from eating its fruit. He could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" before Adam and Eve disobeyed. In addition, even though the prohibition regarding the forbidden fruit was made to Adam before Eve came on the scene, Eve has been blamed for the Fall; 1TI 2:14 says: "... Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.")

GE 3:1-5 The serpent speaks human language (presumably Hebrew).

GE 3:14-16 God curses the serpent, Eve, and Adam for what they have done. (Note: This is inconsistent with God's omniscience; God should have known full well, ahead of time, what the outcome would be. Since God created the three as well as the Tree of Knowledge, he is ultimately responsible for the Fall.)

GE 3:14 The serpent eats dust for the rest of his life (by command of God).

GE 4:15 A mark is placed on Cain as a distinctive identifying symbol when there were only three (known) persons on earth.

GE 4:17 Cain builds and populates a whole city in only two generations.

GE 6:4 There were giants on the earth at one time. (Note: No evidence exists to supports this assertion.)

GE 6:5 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to flood the earth to eliminate mankind. All living things including plants, animals, women and innocent children are also exterminated. (Note: This is like burning down a house to rid it of mice.)

Hawkingfan note: I have a BIG problem with this. The Noah account, clearly borrowed from the mythical account of Gilgamesh, is totally out-of-synch with the Christian god of the NT who saves everyone by grace through the sacrifice of Christ. It therfore, was arbitrary, cruel, and unnecessary to kill these sinners in the flood if god had planned on forgiving them at a later time all along.

GE 6:15 The size of Noah's Ark was such that there would be about one and a half cubic feet for each pair of the 2,000,000 to 5,000,000 species to be taken aboard.

GE 7:17-19 The flood covered the entire earth at the same time. (Note: There is no evidence of a worldwide flood, but rather of many, widespread, but local floods.)

GE 7:19-20 The flood covered the earth with water fifteen cubits (twenty plus feet) above the highest mountains.(Note: This would require steady, worldwide rainfall at the rate of about 6 inches per minute, 360 inches per hour, 8640 inches per day--for 40 days and nights--so as to cover the entire earth with an endless ocean 5 miles deep, thus burying 29,000 ft. Mt. Everest under 22 ft. of water. How did the author know the depth of the water? Did Noah take soundings? And where has all this water gone?)

GE 8:20 Noah's first recorded action following the flood is to sacrifice one of every clean animal and bird. (Since so few animals were saved, this could be considered rather wasteful and defeating--especially given that the stated purpose of taking the animals aboard the Ark was to keep them alive [GE 6:20].

Also, in regard to creation, there is no mention of dinosaurs. And it says the sun and moon were created at roughly the same time. It would also be scientifically impossible for all descendants to come from Adam and Eve without the descendants suffering from mental retardation, deformity, (not to mention dying out completely) in such a small gene pool. Evolution says that we did not come from 1 couple, and there is a certain amount of evidence for that.

In regard to the date of the universe, since light travels 186,000 miles per second, it would be impossible for the universe to be only 6,000 years old. The light coming from the farthest stars in space that we can see left the stars about 10 thousand million years ago and those stars are long since dead and gone.

beastmaster

According to Genesis, the earth is older than the sun, plants are older than the moon and all the stars, trees are older than sealife, there is a hard "firmament" in the sky, humans are formed of dust, all living things are created as strict vegetarians, and all humans are descended from an original population of two, among other demonstrable falsehoods.

No turtles, it's true, but there is a talking snake!

Mike(ATL)

Speaking with you is a true test of patience. You constantly speak to me with disdain, I'm willing to listen but please treat me like a person. I apologize for not being all-knowing. I guess I was not around when you were demonstrating the "P and J" stories. Could you point me to where you did that? I don't know what a "P and J" story is. And I don't know what the challenge is you speak of. I talk to a lot of people bro, although your condescending tone is starting to get my attention. If there is some challenge I should be aware of let me know. What evidence am I not considering?

Let's get it on!

Creation account inconsistencies:
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.
Could be concept of light and darkness. Sun and stars don’t necessarily have to the only source of light. Even the ancient people of the past had to have realized that light came from the sun.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
Different kinds of vegetation. The vegetation in chapter 2 is vegetation "of the field." 1. Vegetation, plants yielding seed, fruit trees 2. Man 3. shrubs and plants of the field, the garden

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
Chapter 1 animals created, Chapter 2 animals brought before man to name. Chapter 1 is the order things were done, Chapter 2 is restating what has already been done with more of a focus on the garden.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
Same deal

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.
Chapter 1 does not say they were created at the same time, just that he created them on the "sixth day."

Absurdities:
GE 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven(s) and the earth." (But where did God dwell before he had created heaven and earth?) (Note: Biblicists have determined that biblical chronology fixes the date of creation at 4004 B.C. thereby making the earth about six thousand years old. Creationists stubbornly adhere to this timetable in spite of overwhelming evidence that the earth is actually billions of years old. Archaeologists tell us that the biblical city of Jericho has, itself, been continuously occupied for more than ten thousand years.)
In the beginning there was God, He doesn't "dwell" anywhere. He's not a physical entity that needs to dwell anywhere. I won't get into the age of the earth because I haven't decided what to believe about that yet. Let's stick with what's in Genesis for now.

GE 1:3-5, 14-19 There was light ("night and day") before there was a sun. (Note: If there were no sun, there would be no night or day. Also, light from the newly created heavenly bodies seems to have reached the earth instantaneously though it now takes thousands or millions of years.)
Concept of light and dark, night and day. If God can create the stars He can surely allow us to see them now no matter how old the earth is.

GE 1:12, 16 Plants began to grow before there was sunlight.
Again, if God can create the very sun and the system that causes sunlight to cause plants to grow, certainly He can cause them to grow without the aid of the sun.

GE 1:29 Every plant and tree which yield seed are given to us by God as good to eat. (Note: This would include poisonous plants such as hemlock, buckeye pod, nightshade, oleander.)
Gen 1:29 says He's given us every plant yielding seed and it is food for us. That doesn't really specify that everything is edible.

GE 2:15-23, 3:1-5, 1TI 2:14 (Note: Prior to eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve would have had no knowledge of right and wrong; they would not have known that it was a sin to disobey God or to obey the serpent. After they ate the forbidden fruit, God placed a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life" to keep them from eating its fruit. He could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" before Adam and Eve disobeyed. In addition, even though the prohibition regarding the forbidden fruit was made to Adam before Eve came on the scene, Eve has been blamed for the Fall; 1TI 2:14 says: "... Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.")
Come on now. Both of them knew God did not want them to eat it, they had the choice and chose to eat. That was their sin against God. Eve was the one deceived by the serpent.

GE 3:1-5 The serpent speaks human language (presumably Hebrew).
Maybe man could converse with the animals before sin. Count it as absurd if it makes you feel better.

GE 3:14-16 God curses the serpent, Eve, and Adam for what they have done. (Note: This is inconsistent with God's omniscience; God should have known full well, ahead of time, what the outcome would be. Since God created the three as well as the Tree of Knowledge, he is ultimately responsible for the Fall.)God can know what was going to happen and still react to what we do. There are complicated theories for this, you've probably heard them.

GE 3:14 The serpent eats dust for the rest of his life (by command of God).
Not literally

Mind if I stop here as we're going past the creation account? This is a long list and I want to go to sleep.

Adora

Because the Sumerians were there first.

Philosoft

No thanks. What I would like is for you to reconcile that last sentence with this:from your OP, and your subsequent example of some argument of Biff the Unclean's.

It looks for all the world like you are criticizing Biff for his alleged dismissal of the validity of the entire Bible based on specific inconsistencies, while you proclaim the truth of the Genesis account based on specific accuracies. I assume there's a perfectly good explanation for this?

Answerer

Mike, even if the Bible genesis is somehow right, it only shows how the Earth and part of the solar system(sun and moon) is created. It NEVER INDICATES anything regarding the creation of the entire universe or other creatures (or aliens) in other planets or star systems.

Besides, it is quite illogical to create a big universe only to house an insignificant(or very, very small) amount of humans.



Yeah right, and the ancient also believed that the Earth was flat while sun and moon rotated around its fixed position. If you take away the sun and stars now, earth will be under a great darkness even though there might be still some light. However even so, the amount of light present is not enough to SEPARATE DAY AND NIGHT.



Wrong, new star systems are considering discovered since the 20th cenutry. And light was and is proved to move at a speed of finite magnitude while the universe also shows to be expanding.

Most plants (on the land) do depend on sunlight, those that did not, get their food from animals or plants that depends on sunlight.

If you don't, then find me a plant on the land that can survive without sunlight ( plus animals and plants).

There is a great difference between poison and food and thats why we don't label unedible material as food. And by telling humans that poison is food shows that the Bible doesn't really make any sense at all.

Yeah, but they don't know it is 'wrong and bad' to disobey God. Would you punish or curse a baby for chewing your favourite apple?



LoL, its absurd indeed. I hope you never study science.

Whatever the theories might be, one thing is for sure in this case: God is bored with His endless life.