Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 09-24-2011, 12:13 PM

Jay,

I can't tell you how excited I am about this discovery. What is increasingly becoming clear to me is also that Romans - the epistle where Paul makes reference to 'his gospel' is repeatedly identified by Clement as the epistle where Paul makes reference after reference to passages from his gospel also referenced by Clement as the Gospel of the Egyptians. I can't tell you how important this is. This is more than a confirmation of Marcion doctrine (but I remember reading an article at Detering's site by a 'real' scholar of Marcionitism noting that Romans seems to know the gospel independent of the Clement angle). The point is that that Clement and Marcion agree. Paul not only had a gospel but makes reference throughout Romans to that gospel. And let me emphasize this for those who don't 'get it' yet.

There's something else that I begin to suspect out of all of this. Let's start with the obvious. The changes made to the Pauline epistles weren't 'accidental.' They were more than anti-Marcionite. They were nothing short of a plot to hide the idea that the Apostle actually wrote a gospel. This can be proved I believe once I go through all the Epistles. But you know what is lying of the horizon just beyond this realization? That the gospels were deliberately arranged so as to hide this fact too (i.e. it wasn't just the Apostikon but 'the Gospel' (= now four). All the proofs of Paul citing directly from his gospel have been obscured or erased from the canonical four. The same would likely be true for the references cited by the Marcionite tradition (assuming they are different).

Yet the ultimate realization is what Morton Smith hints at in the Secret Gospel. The story about the disciple being dead, resurrected and baptized is the basis for Pauline baptism. In other words, Paul is making reference to LGM 1 throughout (= the first addition to the Longer Gospel of Mark).

So let me make this explicit for those who don't 'get it.' The apostle is making reference to a written gospel, not some oral teaching in Romans. This can now be proved. The only reason this hasn't been noticed before either (a) through the Epistle to the Romans itself (b) what the Marcionites say about Romans or (c) what Clement says about Romans is because scholars are wishy washy believers disguised as people engaging in science. I say, demolish the university departments and start over again.

stephan huller · 09-24-2011, 02:34 PM

Add this to list for chapter 5 above -

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Rom 5.13 - Well, the body tills the ground, and hastes to it; but the soul is raised to God: trained in the true philosophy, it speeds to its kindred above, turning away from the lusts of the body, and besides these, from toil and fear, although we have shown that patience and fear belong to the good man. For if “by the law is the knowledge of sin,” [Rom. iii. 20] as those allege who disparage the law, and “till the law sin was in the world;” [Rom. v. 13] yet “without the law sin was dead,” [Rom. vii. 6] we oppose them. [Strom 4.3]

and now chapter 7 (notice there is a consistent pattern of blending material from chapters 3 and 7 throughout:

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Rom 7.2 - Yet again in speaking about the Law he makes use of an analogy. "The married woman," he says, "is tied to her husband by law during his lifetime," and so on. And again, "The wife is under the marriage bond as long as her husband is alive. If he dies she is free to marry, provided it is in the Lord. But in my view her greatest blessing is to remain as she is." Now, in the former passage he says, "You have died to the Law" – not to marriage! – "with a view to becoming another’s, one who belongs to him was raised from the dead," at once Bride and Church. The Bride and Church must be pure alike from inward thoughts contrary to truth and from outward tempters, that is, the adherents of heretical sects who try to persuade her to sexual unfaithfulness to her one and only husband almighty God. [Strom 3.12]

Strom 7.4 - How can marriage in the past be a mere invention of the Law, and marriage as ordained by our Lord be different, when it is the same God whom we worship? "Man must not pull apart that which God has joined together." [Matt 19.6] That is reasonable. Far more so that that Son will preserve the things which the Father has ordained. If the Law and gospel come from the same being, the Son cannot fight against himself. The Law is alive because it is spiritual, [Rom 7.14] if we interpret it in the light of true knowledge. But we "have died to the Law through Christ’s body with a view to belonging to another, the one who was raised from the dead," the one who was prophesied by the Law, "so that we may bear fruit for God." [Rom 7.4] So "the Law is holy; the commandment is holy, righteous and good." [Rom 7.12] We died to the Law, that is to say, to the sin exposed by the Law, which the Law does not engender but reveals. It enjoins what we ought to do and bans what 333 we ought not to do. It shows up the sin that is hidden, "so that sin may be seen for what it is." [Rom 7.14] But if legally constituted marriage is sin, I do not know how anyone can claim to know God while saying that God’s commandment is sin. If the Law is holy, marriage is holy. Accordingly, the Apostle points this mystery in the direction of Christ and the Church. [Eph 5.32] just as "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, so that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" [John 3.6] not just in the process of birth but in its education. So "the children are holy," [1 Cor 7.14] objects of delight, when the Lord’s words have brought the soul to God as a bride. Anyway, there is a distinction between fornication and marriage, as great as separates the devil from God. "So you too have died to the Law through Christ’s body with a view to belonging to another, the one who was raised from the dead." [Rom 7.4] It is implied that you have become attentive in your obedience, since it is actually congruent with the truth of the Law that we are servants of the same Lord who gives us his instructions at a distance. [Strom 3.12]

Rom 7.6 - Well, the body tills the ground, and hastes to it; but the soul is raised to God: trained in the true philosophy, it speeds to its kindred above, turning away from the lusts of the body, and besides these, from toil and fear, although we have shown that patience and fear belong to the good man. For if “by the law is the knowledge of sin,” [Rom. iii. 20] as those allege who disparage the law, and “till the law sin was in the world;” [Rom. v. 13] yet “without the law sin was dead,” [Rom. vii. 6] we oppose them. [Strom 4.3]

Rom 7.7 - At this point, I think that I ought not to leave on one side without comment the fact that the Apostle preaches the same God whether through the Law, the prophets, or the gospel. For in his letter to the Romans he attributes to the Law the words "You shall not lust" which in fact appear in the text of the gospel. [Matt 5.27; Rom 7.7] He does so in the knowledge that it is one single person who makes his decrees through the Law and the prophets, and is the subject of the gospel’s proclamation. He says, "What shall we say? Is the Law sin? Of course not. But I did not know sin except through the Law. I did not know lust, except that the Law said, ‘You shall not lust.’" [Rom 7.7] If the heretics who assail the creator suppose that Paul was speaking against him in the words that follow: "I know that nothing good lodges in me, in my flesh, that is to say," they had better read the words which precede and come after these. He has just said, "Sin lodges in me," which makes it appropriate to go on to, "Nothing good lodges in my flesh." [7.17-18 and then 7.20, 23-4 then 8.2 -4] [Strom 3.11]

Rom 7.12 - Wherefore also Paul says, “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested;” [Rom. iii. 21, 22] and again, that you may better conceive of God, “even the righteousness of God by the faith of Jesus Christ upon all that believe; for there is no difference.” [Rom, iii. 26] And, witnessing further to the truth, he adds after a little, “through the forbearance of God, in order to show that He is just, and that Jesus is the justifier of him who is of faith.” And that he knows that what is just is good, appears by his saying, “So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good,” [Rom. vii. 12] using both names to denote the same power. But “no one is good,” except His Father. It is this same Father of His, then, who being one is manifested by many powers. And this was the import of the utterance, “No man knew the Father,” [Luke x. 22; John xvii. 25] who was Himself everything before the coming of the Son. [Strom 1.8]

Rom 7.12 - "Man must not pull apart that which God has joined together." [Matt 19.6] That is reasonable. Far more so that that Son will preserve the things which the Father has ordained. If the Law and gospel come from the same being, the Son cannot fight against himself. The Law is alive because it is spiritual, [Rom 7.14] if we interpret it in the light of true knowledge. But we "have died to the Law through Christ’s body with a view to belonging to another, the one who was raised from the dead," the one who was prophesied by the Law, "so that we may bear fruit for God." [Rom 7.4] So "the Law is holy; the commandment is holy, righteous and good." [Rom 7.12] We died to the Law, that is to say, to the sin exposed by the Law, which the Law does not engender but reveals. It enjoins what we ought to do and bans what we ought not to do. It shows up the sin that is hidden, "so that sin may be seen for what it is." [Rom 7.14] [Strom 3.12]

Rom 7.12 - Jesus, accordingly, does not charge him with not having fulfilled all things out of the law, but loves him, and fondly welcomes his obedience in what he had learned; but says that he is not perfect as respects eternal life, inasmuch as he had not fulfilled what is perfect, and that he is a doer indeed of the law, but idle at the true life. Those things, indeed, are good. Who denies it? For “the commandment is holy,” [Rom. vii. 12] as far as a sort of training with fear and preparatory discipline goes, leading as it did to the culmination of legislation and to grace. [Gal 3.24] [QDS 9]

Rom 7.12 - 14 But the cavillers did not know even this, as the apostle says, “that he who loveth his brother worketh not evil;” for this, “Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal; and if there be any other commandment, it is comprehended in the word, Thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself.” [Rom. xiii. 8–10] So also is it said, “Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” [Luke x. 27] And “if he that loveth his neighbour worketh no evil,” and if “every commandment is comprehended in this, the loving our neighbour,” the commandments, by menacing with fear, work love, not hatred. Wherefore the law is productive of the emotion of fear. “So that the law is holy,” and in truth “spiritual,” [Rom. vii. 12, 14] according to the apostle. We must, then, as is fit, in investigating the nature of the body and the essence of the soul, apprehend the end of each, and not regard death as an evil. “For when ye were the servants of sin,” says the apostle, “ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things in which ye are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now, being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.” [Rom. vi. 20–23] [Strom 4.3]

Rom 7.17,18 - Rom 7.7 - At this point, I think that I ought not to leave on one side without comment the fact that the Apostle preaches the same God whether through the Law, the prophets, or the gospel. For in his letter to the Romans he attributes to the Law the words "You shall not lust" which in fact appear in the text of the gospel. [Matt 5.27; Rom 7.7] He does so in the knowledge that it is one single person who makes his decrees through the Law and the prophets, and is the subject of the gospel’s proclamation. He says, "What shall we say? Is the Law sin? Of course not. But I did not know sin except through the Law. I did not know lust, except that the Law said, ‘You shall not lust.’" [Rom 7.7] If the heretics who assail the creator suppose that Paul was speaking against him in the words that follow: "I know that nothing good lodges in me, in my flesh, that is to say," they had better read the words which precede and come after these. He has just said, "Sin lodges in me," which makes it appropriate to go on to, "Nothing good lodges in my flesh." [7.17-18] On top of this he continues, "If I act contrary to my will, the effect is not mine but the effect of sin lodging in me," which, he says, "is at war with" God’s "Law and my own reason and takes me prisoner under the Law of sin which is in my very bones. What a wretched man I am. Who will rescue me from this body which is doomed to death?" [7.20, 23-4 then 8.2 -4] [Strom 3.11]

Rom 7.20, 23, 24 - At this point, I think that I ought not to leave on one side without comment the fact that the Apostle preaches the same God whether through the Law, the prophets, or the gospel. For in his letter to the Romans he attributes to the Law the words "You shall not lust" which in fact appear in the text of the gospel. [Matt 5.27; Rom 7.7] He does so in the knowledge that it is one single person who makes his decrees through the Law and the prophets, and is the subject of the gospel’s proclamation. He says, "What shall we say? Is the Law sin? Of course not. But I did not know sin except through the Law. I did not know lust, except that the Law said, ‘You shall not lust.’" [Rom 7.7] If the heretics who assail the creator suppose that Paul was speaking against him in the words that follow: "I know that nothing good lodges in me, in my flesh, that is to say," they had better read the words which precede and come after these. He has just said, "Sin lodges in me," which makes it appropriate to go on to, "Nothing good lodges in my flesh." [7.17-18] On top of this he continues, "If I act contrary to my will, the effect is not mine but the effect of sin lodging in me," which, he says, "is at war with" God’s "Law and my own reason and takes me prisoner under the Law of sin which is in my very bones. What a wretched man I am. Who will rescue me from this body which is doomed to death?" [7.20, 23-4 then 8.2 -4] [Strom 3.11]

Rom 7.24 - And again, "So on earth too the soul of the philosopher particularly despises the body, tries to escape from it, and seeks to secure an existence on its own." [Plato, Phaedo 65 C-D] This clearly harmonizes with the divine Apostle’s words: "Wretch that I am, all too human, who shall rescue me from this body of death?" [Rom 7.24] – unless he is using the phrase "body of death" metaphorically of the common mind of those who have been seduced into vice. Long before Marcion, Plato, in the first book of the Republic, clearly saw sexual intercourse as the origin of birth and rejected it accordingly. [Strom 3.3]

Rom 7.24 -25 - “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God,” explains the apostle: “for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed, can be. And they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” And in further explanation continues, that no one may, like Marcion regard the creature as evil. “But if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” And again: “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory which shall be revealed in us. If we suffer with Him, that we also may be glorified together as joint-heirs of Christ. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are called according to the purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. And whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” [Rom. viii. 7, 8, 10, 13, 17, 18, 28, 29, 30] You see that martyrdom for love’s sake is taught. And should you wish to be a martyr for the recompense of advantages, you shall hear again. “For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.” [Rom. vii. 24, 25] “But if we also suffer for righteousness’ sake,” says Peter, “blessed are we. Be not afraid of their fear, neither be troubled. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to him that asks a reason of the hope that is in you, but with meekness and fear, having a good conscience; so that in reference to that for which you are spoken against, they may be ashamed who calumniate your good conversation in Christ. For it is better to suffer for well-doing, if the will of God, than for evil-doing.” But if one should captiously say, And how is it possible for feeble flesh to resist the energies and spirits of the Powers? [Eph. vi. 12] well, let him know this, that, confiding in the Almighty and the Lord, we war against the principalities of darkness, and against death. “Whilst thou art yet speaking,” He says, “Lo, here am I.” See the invincible Helper who shields us. “Think it not strange, therefore, concerning the burning sent for your trial, as though some strange thing happened to you; But, as you are partaken in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice; that at the revelation of His glory ye may rejoice exultant. If ye be reproached in the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the Spirit of glory and of God resteth on you.” [1 Pet. iv. 12, 13, 14] As it is written, “Because for Thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors, through Him that loved us.” [Rom. viii. 36, 37] [Strom 4.7]

stephan huller · 09-24-2011, 03:52 PM

Clement's citations of Romans chapter 8:

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Romans 8:2-4, 10, 11; 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15 - On top of this he continues, "If I act contrary to my will, the effect is not mine but the effect of sin lodging in me," which, he says, "is at war with" God’s "Law and my own reason and takes me prisoner under the Law of sin which is in my very bones. What a wretched man I am. Who will rescue me from this body which is doomed to death?" [Rom 7.20, 23-4] Once again, since he never remotely gets tired of doing good, he does not hesitate to add, "The Law of the Spirit has freed me from the Law of sin and death," since through his Son "God has pronounced judgment upon sin in the flesh so that the Law’s ordinance might find fulfillment in us, whose lives are governed by the Spirit not by the flesh." [Rom 8.2-4] In addition to all this, he makes what he has already said even clearer by asserting at the top of his voice, "The body is a dead thing because of sin," [Rom 8.10] showing that if it is not the soul’s temple it remains the soul’s tomb. When it is consecrated to God, he is going to continue, "the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lodges in you, and he will give life even to your mortal bodies through his indwelling Spirit." [Rom 8.11] So again he attacks the hedonists and adds, "The object of the flesh is death, since those whose lives are governed by the flesh follow the flesh in their objectives; and the object of the flesh is hostility to God, for it is not subject to God’s Law. Those who live on the level of flesh cannot please God" should not be understood as some people lay down, but as I have already argued. Then in distinction from these people, he addresses the Church. "You are not living by the flesh but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God is dwelling in you. Anyone without Christ’s Spirit is not of him. But if Christ is in you, then your body is a dead thing because of sin, but the Spirit is life through righteousness. So, brothers, we are in debt. Not to the flesh, to follow it in our lives; for if you follow the flesh in the way you live, you are on the way to death. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live. For all who are guided by God’s Spirit are sons of God." He goes on to speak against the high birth and freedom which the heretics adduce so abominably as they vaunt their licentiousness. "You have not received a spirit of slavery to drive you once again towards fear. You have received a Spirit that makes us sons and enables us to cry out, ‘Abba,’ ‘Father.’" [Rom 8.5-15] That is to say, we have received the Spirit to enable us to know the one to whom we pray, our real Father, the one and only Father of all that is, the one who like a Father educates us for salvation and does away with fear. [Strom 3.11]

Rom 8:7, 8, 10, 13, 17, 18, 28, 29, 30; 36, 37 - And the Saviour has said to us, “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” [Matt. 26. 41] “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God,” explains the apostle: “for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed, can be. And they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” And in further explanation continues, that no one may, like Marcion regard the creature as evil. “But if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” And again: “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory which shall be revealed in us. If we suffer with Him, that we also may be glorified together as joint-heirs of Christ. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are called according to the purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. And whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” [Rom. viii. 7, 8, 10, 13, 17, 18, 28, 29, 30] You see that martyrdom for love’s sake is taught. And should you wish to be a martyr for the recompense of advantages, you shall hear again. “For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.” [Rom. vii. 24, 25] “But if we also suffer for righteousness’ sake,” says Peter, “blessed are we. Be not afraid of their fear, neither be troubled. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to him that asks a reason of the hope that is in you, but with meekness and fear, having a good conscience; so that in reference to that for which you are spoken against, they may be ashamed who calumniate your good conversation in Christ. For it is better to suffer for well-doing, if the will of God, than for evil-doing.” But if one should captiously say, And how is it possible for feeble flesh to resist the energies and spirits of the Powers? [Eph. vi. 12] well, let him know this, that, confiding in the Almighty and the Lord, we war against the principalities of darkness, and against death. “Whilst thou art yet speaking,” He says, “Lo, here am I.” See the invincible Helper who shields us. “Think it not strange, therefore, concerning the burning sent for your trial, as though some strange thing happened to you; But, as you are partaken in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice; that at the revelation of His glory ye may rejoice exultant. If ye be reproached in the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the Spirit of glory and of God resteth on you.” [1 Pet. iv. 12, 13, 14] As it is written, “Because for Thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors, through Him that loved us.” [Rom. viii. 36, 37] [Strom 4.7]

Rom 8.9 - So also may we take the Scripture: “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ;” [1 Cor. iii. 1] so that the carnal may be understood as those recently instructed, and still babes in Christ. For he called those who had already believed on the Holy Spirit spiritual, and those newly instructed and not yet purified carnal; whom with justice he calls still carnal, as minding equally with the heathen the things of the flesh: “For whereas there is among you envy and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?” [1 Cor. iii. 3]“Wherefore also I have given you milk to drink,” he says; meaning, I have instilled into you the knowledge which, from instruction, nourishes up to life eternal. But the expression, “I have given you to drink” (ἐπότισα), is the symbol of perfect appropriation. For those who are full-grown are said to drink, babes to suck. “For my blood,” says the Lord, “is true drink.” [John vi. 55] In saying, therefore, “I have given you milk to drink,” has he not indicated the knowledge of the truth, the perfect gladness in the Word, who is the milk? And what follows next, “not meat, for ye were not able,” may indicate the clear revelation in the future world, like food, face to face. “For now we see as through a glass,” the same apostle says, “but then face to face.” [1 Cor. xiii. 12] Wherefore also he has added, “neither yet are ye now able, for ye are still carnal,” minding the things of the flesh,—desiring, loving, feeling jealousy, wrath, envy. “For we are no more in the flesh,” [Rom. viii. 9] as some suppose. For with it [they say], having the face which is like an angel’s, we shall see the promise face to face. How then, if that is truly the promise after our departure hence, say they that they know “what eye hath not known, nor hath entered into the mind of man,” who have not perceived by the Spirit, but received from instruction “what ear hath not heard,” [Cor. ii. 9] or that ear alone which “was rapt up into the third heaven?” [Cor. xii. 2–4] But it even then was commanded to preserve it unspoken. [Strom 1.6]

Rom 8.9 - Those that are superior to Pleasure, who rise above the passions, who know what they do—the Gnostics, who are greater than the world. “I said, Ye are Gods; and all sons of the Highest.” [Ps. lxxxii. 6] To whom speaks the Lord? To those who reject as far as possible all that is of man. And the apostle says, “For ye are not any longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit.” [Rom. viii. 9] And again he says, “Though in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh.” [2 Cor. x. 3] “For flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” [1 Cor. xv. 50] “Lo, ye shall die like men,” the Spirit has said, confuting us. [Strom 2.20]

Rom 8.15 - “For God hath not given us the spirit of bondage again to fear; but of power, and love, and of a sound mind. Be not therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me his prisoner,” he writes to Timothy. [2 Tim. i. 7, 8; Rom. viii. 15] Such shall he be “who cleaves to that which is good,” according to the apostle, [Rom. xii. 9] “who hates evil, having love unfeigned; for he that loveth another fulfilleth the law.” [Rom. xiii. 8] [Strom 4.7]

Rom 8.17 - Praise and declare to me Thy Father God; Thy utterances save; Thy hymn teaches [Eph. v. 14] is probably from a hymn of the Church, which is here referred to as His, as it is adopted into Scripture.] that hitherto I have wandered in error, seeking God. But since Thou leadest me to the light, O Lord, and I find God through Thee, and receive the Father from Thee, I become “Thy fellow-heir,” [Rom. viii. 17] since Thou “wert not ashamed of me as Thy brother.” [Heb. ii. 11] Let us put away, then, let us put away oblivion of the truth, viz., ignorance; and removing the darkness which obstructs, as dimness of sight, let us contemplate the only true God, first raising our voice in this hymn of praise: Hail, O light! For in us, buried in darkness, shut up in the shadow of death, light has shone forth from heaven, purer than the sun, sweeter than life here below. That light is eternal life; and whatever partakes of it lives. But night fears the light, and hiding itself in terror, gives place to the day of the Lord. Sleepless light is now over all, and the west has given credence to the east. For this was the end of the new creation. For “the Sun of Righteousness,” who drives His chariot over all, pervades equally all humanity, like “His Father, who makes His sun to rise on all men,” and distils on them the dew of the truth. He hath changed sunset into sunrise, and through the cross brought death to life; and having wrenched man from destruction, He hath raised him to the skies, transplanting mortality into immortality, and translating earth to heaven—He, the husbandman of God, [Exhortation 11]

Rom 8.26 - If he but form the thought in the secret chamber of his soul, and call on the Father “with unspoken groanings,” [Rom. viii. 26] He is near, and is at his side, while yet speaking. Inasmuch as there are but three ends of all action, he does everything for its excellence and utility; but doing aught for the sake of pleasure, which he leaves to those who pursue the common life. [Strom 7.7]

Rom 8.28, 29 - No one would, I say, voluntarily choose to do this. “For if God foreknew those who are called, according to His purpose, to be conformed to the image of His Son,” for whose sake, according to the blessed apostle, He has appointed “Him to be the first-born among many brethren," [Rom. viii. 28, 29] are they not godless who treat with indignity the body which is of like form with the Lord? [Paed 3.3]

Rom 8:35 Let us bear about a deep love for the Creator; let us cleave to Him with our whole heart; let us not wickedly waste the substance of reason, like the prodigal. Let us obtain the joy laid up, in which Paul exulting, exclaimed, “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?” [Rom. viii. 35] To Him belongs glory and honour, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, world without end. Amen. [Cassiodorus]

Rom 8:36, 37 - And the Saviour has said to us, “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” [Matt. 26. 41] “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God,” explains the apostle: “for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed, can be. And they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” And in further explanation continues, that no one may, like Marcion regard the creature as evil. “But if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” And again: “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory which shall be revealed in us. If we suffer with Him, that we also may be glorified together as joint-heirs of Christ. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them that are called according to the purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. And whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” [Rom. viii. 7, 8, 10, 13, 17, 18, 28, 29, 30] You see that martyrdom for love’s sake is taught. And should you wish to be a martyr for the recompense of advantages, you shall hear again. “For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.” [Rom. vii. 24, 25] “But if we also suffer for righteousness’ sake,” says Peter, “blessed are we. Be not afraid of their fear, neither be troubled. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to him that asks a reason of the hope that is in you, but with meekness and fear, having a good conscience; so that in reference to that for which you are spoken against, they may be ashamed who calumniate your good conversation in Christ. For it is better to suffer for well-doing, if the will of God, than for evil-doing.” But if one should captiously say, And how is it possible for feeble flesh to resist the energies and spirits of the Powers? [Eph. vi. 12] well, let him know this, that, confiding in the Almighty and the Lord, we war against the principalities of darkness, and against death. “Whilst thou art yet speaking,” He says, “Lo, here am I.” See the invincible Helper who shields us. “Think it not strange, therefore, concerning the burning sent for your trial, as though some strange thing happened to you; But, as you are partaken in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice; that at the revelation of His glory ye may rejoice exultant. If ye be reproached in the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the Spirit of glory and of God resteth on you.” [1 Pet. iv. 12, 13, 14] As it is written, “Because for Thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors, through Him that loved us.” [Rom. viii. 36, 37] [Strom 4.7]

Rom 8:38 - “Or life, that of our present existence,” and “death,” [Rom 8.38]—that caused by the assault of persecutors, and “angels, and principalities, and powers,” apostate spirits. [Catanae]

Rom 8:38, 39 - For I am persuaded that neither death,” through the assault of persecutors, “nor life” in this world, “nor angels,” the apostate ones, “nor powers” (and Satan’s power is the life which he chose, for such are the powers and principalities of darkness belonging to him), “nor things present,” amid which we exist during the time of life, as the hope entertained by the soldier, and the merchant’s gain, “nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature,” in consequence of the energy proper to a man,—opposes the faith of him who acts according to free choice. “Creature” is synonymous with activity, being our work, and such activity “shall not be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” [Rom. viii. 38, 39] You have got a compendious account of the gnostic martyr. [Strom 4.14]

Notice again the conflation of 1 Peter with Romans. In the previous example material which actually belongs to 1 Peter is mistaken to have been written by Paul. Now Romans 8:37, 38 is attributed to 1 Peter:

Quote:

“But if we also suffer for righteousness’ sake,” says Peter, “blessed are we. Be not afraid of their fear, neither be troubled. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to him that asks a reason of the hope that is in you, but with meekness and fear, having a good conscience; so that in reference to that for which you are spoken against, they may be ashamed who calumniate your good conversation in Christ. For it is better to suffer for well-doing, if the will of God, than for evil-doing.” But if one should captiously say, And how is it possible for feeble flesh to resist the energies and spirits of the Powers? [Eph. vi. 12] well, let him know this, that, confiding in the Almighty and the Lord, we war against the principalities of darkness, and against death. “Whilst thou art yet speaking,” He says, “Lo, here am I.” See the invincible Helper who shields us. “Think it not strange, therefore, concerning the burning sent for your trial, as though some strange thing happened to you; But, as you are partaken in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice; that at the revelation of His glory ye may rejoice exultant. If ye be reproached in the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the Spirit of glory and of God resteth on you.” [1 Pet. iv. 12, 13, 14] As it is written, “Because for Thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors, through Him that loved us.” [Rom 8:36, 37]

There had to have been a (careless or hurried) editor superficially 'correcting' the attributions of scripture in the writings of Clement of Alexandria. Another sign of this is the manner in which the Stromata cites the same scripture (Mark 10's reference to the Father) in several different ways. There simply is no way that Clement could have mistaken Peter for Paul and Paul for Peter back to back.

stephan huller · 09-24-2011, 04:07 PM

Clement's only possible reference to anything from Romans chapter 9 anywhere in his writings:

Quote:

Romans 9:14 - For there is no unrighteousness with God according to the apostle. [Strom 4.23]

Comparing the sayings side by side. First Clement of Alexandria's Stromata 4.24:

οὐδὲ γάρ ἐστιν ἀδικία παρὰ τῷ θεῷ κατὰ τὸν ἀπόστολον

Then Romans 9:14:

Τί οὖν ἐροῦμεν; μὴ ἀδικία παρὰ τῷ θεῷ; μὴ γένοιτο

Is it a general statement to the incompatibility of ἀδικία with God or is Romans 9:14 the only verse from chapter 9 which carried over to Clement's Alexandrian NT?

There may have been other lines from chapter 9 in Clement's canon. Nevertheless it is undeniable that it does appear as if his version of the Epistle to the Romans resembled the Marcionite recension.

stephan huller · 09-24-2011, 08:48 PM

Clement's citation of Romans chapter 10:

Quote:

Rom 10.2 - 4 (begins with material from Rom 12:2; 9,10 - 18.21) And the same apostle owns that he bears witness to the Jews, “that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.” [Rom. x. 2, 3] For they did not know and do the will of the law; but what they supposed, that they thought the law wished. And they did not believe the law as prophesying, but the bare word; and they followed through fear, not through disposition and faith. “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness,” [Rom. x. 4] who was prophesied by the law to every one that believeth. Whence it was said to them by Moses, “I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are not a people; and I will anger you by a foolish nation, that is, by one that has become disposed to obedience.” [Rom. x. 19; Deut. xxxii. 21] And by Isaiah it is said, “I was found of them that sought Me not; I was made manifest to them that inquired not after Me,” [Isa. xlv. 2; Rom. x. 20, 21] —manifestly previous to the coming of the Lord; after which to Israel, the things prophesied, are now appropriately spoken: “I have stretched out My hands all the day long to a disobedient and gainsaying people.” Do you see the cause of the calling from among the nations, clearly declared, by the prophet, to be the disobedience and gainsaying of the people? Then the goodness of God is shown also in their case. For the apostle says, “But through their transgression salvation is come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy” [Rom. xi. 11] and to willingness to repent. And the Shepherd, speaking plainly of those who had fallen asleep, recognises certain righteous among Gentiles and Jews, not only before the appearance of Christ, but before the law, in virtue of acceptance before God,—as Abel, as Noah, as any other righteous man. He says accordingly, “that the apostles and teachers, who had preached the name of the Son of God, and had fallen asleep, in power and by faith, preached to those that had fallen asleep before” Then he subjoins: “And they gave them the seal of preaching. They descended, therefore, with them into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive, and again ascended alive. But those, who had fallen asleep before, descended dead, but ascended alive. By these, therefore, they were made alive, and knew the name of the Son of God. Wherefore also they ascended with them, and fitted into the structure of the tower, and unhewn were built up together; they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity, but wanted only this seal.” [Hermas, Similitudes, p. 49] “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves,” [Rom. ii. 14] [Paed 2.9]

Rom 10.4 - Who then is perfect? He who professes abstinence from what is bad. Well, this is the way to the Gospel and to well-doing. But gnostic perfection in the case of the legal man is the acceptance of the Gospel, that he that is after the law may be perfect. For so he, who was after the law, Moses, foretold that it was necessary to hear in order that we might, according to the apostle, receive Christ, the fulness of the law. [Deut. xviii. 15; Rom. x. 4] [Strom 4.21]

Rom 10:8, 9, 10, 11 - “With the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Wherefore the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed; that is, the word of faith which we preach: for if thou confess the word with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” [Rom. x. 10, 11, 8, 9] There is clearly described the perfect righteousness, fulfilled both in practice and contemplation. Wherefore we are “to bless those who persecute us. Bless, and curse not.” [Rom. xii. 14] “For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of a good conscience, that in holiness and sincerity we know God” by this inconsiderable instance exhibiting the work of love, that “not in fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world.” [2 Cor. i. 12] So far the apostle respecting knowledge; and in the second Epistle to the Corinthians he calls the common “teaching of faith” the savour of knowledge. [Strom 4.16]

Rom 10.10 - Heracleon, the most distinguished of the school of Valentinians, says expressly, “that there is a confession by faith and conduct, and one with the voice. The confession that is made with the voice, and before the authorities, is what the most reckon the only confession. Not soundly: and hypocrites also can confess with this confession. But neither will this utterance be found to be spoken universally; for all the saved have confessed with the confession made by the voice, and departed. [Rom. x. 10] Of whom are Matthew, Philip, Thomas, Levi, and many others. And confession by the lip is not universal, but partial. But that which He specifies now is universal, that which is by deeds and actions corresponding to faith in Him. This confession is followed by that which is partial, that before the authorities, if necessary, and reason dictate. For he will confess rightly with his voice who has first confessed by his disposition. [Rom. x. 10] [Strom 4.9]

Rom 10.10,11 - (after Rom 8.36,37) But it is God that makes proclamation to us, and He must be believed. “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Wherefore the Scripture saith, “Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be put to shame.” [Rom. x. 10, 11] (followed by Rom ch 12) [Strom 4.7]

Rom 10: 14, 15, 17 - “Lord, who hath believed our report?” [Isa. liii. 1] Isaiah says. For “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God,” saith the apostle. “How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe on Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those that publish glad tidings of good things.” [Rom. x. 17, 14, 15] You see how he brings faith by hearing, and the preaching of the apostles, up to the word of the Lord, and to the Son of God. We do not yet understand the word of the Lord to be demonstration. [Strom 2.6]

Rom 10.19, 20, 21 - (begins with material from Rom 12:2; 9,10 - 18.21) And the same apostle owns that he bears witness to the Jews, “that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.” [Rom. x. 2, 3] For they did not know and do the will of the law; but what they supposed, that they thought the law wished. And they did not believe the law as prophesying, but the bare word; and they followed through fear, not through disposition and faith. “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness,” [Rom. x. 4] who was prophesied by the law to every one that believeth. Whence it was said to them by Moses, “I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are not a people; and I will anger you by a foolish nation, that is, by one that has become disposed to obedience.” [Rom. x. 19; Deut. xxxii. 21] And by Isaiah it is said, “I was found of them that sought Me not; I was made manifest to them that inquired not after Me,” [Isa. xlv. 2; Rom. x. 20, 21] —manifestly previous to the coming of the Lord; after which to Israel, the things prophesied, are now appropriately spoken: “I have stretched out My hands all the day long to a disobedient and gainsaying people.” Do you see the cause of the calling from among the nations, clearly declared, by the prophet, to be the disobedience and gainsaying of the people? Then the goodness of God is shown also in their case. For the apostle says, “But through their transgression salvation is come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy” [Rom. xi. 11] and to willingness to repent. And the Shepherd, speaking plainly of those who had fallen asleep, recognises certain righteous among Gentiles and Jews, not only before the appearance of Christ, but before the law, in virtue of acceptance before God,—as Abel, as Noah, as any other righteous man. He says accordingly, “that the apostles and teachers, who had preached the name of the Son of God, and had fallen asleep, in power and by faith, preached to those that had fallen asleep before” Then he subjoins: “And they gave them the seal of preaching. They descended, therefore, with them into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive, and again ascended alive. But those, who had fallen asleep before, descended dead, but ascended alive. By these, therefore, they were made alive, and knew the name of the Son of God. Wherefore also they ascended with them, and fitted into the structure of the tower, and unhewn were built up together; they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity, but wanted only this seal.” [Hermas, Similitudes, p. 49] “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves,” [Rom. ii. 14] [Paed 2.9]

stephan huller · 09-24-2011, 09:50 PM

Clement's citations of Romans chapter 11

Quote:

Rom 11:11 (immediately after citation of 10:2 - 4, 19 - 21) Then the goodness of God is shown also in their case. For the apostle says, “But through their transgression salvation is come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy [Rom. xi. 11] and to willingness to repent. And the Shepherd, speaking plainly of those who had fallen asleep, recognises certain righteous among Gentiles and Jews, not only before the appearance of Christ, but before the law, in virtue of acceptance before God,—as Abel, as Noah, as any other righteous man. He says accordingly, “that the apostles and teachers, who had preached the name of the Son of God, and had fallen asleep, in power and by faith, preached to those that had fallen asleep before” Then he subjoins: “And they gave them the seal of preaching. They descended, therefore, with them into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive, and again ascended alive. But those, who had fallen asleep before, descended dead, but ascended alive. By these, therefore, they were made alive, and knew the name of the Son of God. Wherefore also they ascended with them, and fitted into the structure of the tower, and unhewn were built up together; they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity, but wanted only this seal.” [Hermas, Similitudes, p. 49, supra.] “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves,” [Rom. ii. 14] according to the apostle. [Strom 2.9]

Rom 11:22 - “Behold, therefore,” says Paul, “the goodness and severity of God: on them that fell, severity; but upon thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness,” [Rom. xi. 22] that is, in faith in Christ. [Strom 1.8]

Rom 11.33 - And the treasures of wisdom are unfailing, in admiration of which the apostle says, “O the depth of the riches and the wisdom!” [Rom. xi. 33] [Paed 3.12]

Rom 11:33 - Further, in the Epistle of the Romans to the Corinthians it is written, “An ocean illimitable by men and the worlds after it.” Consequently, therefore, the noble apostle exclaims, “Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God!” [Rom. xi. 33] And was it not this which the prophet meant, when he ordered unleavened cakes (ἐγκρυφίαι) to be made, intimating that the truly sacred mystic word, respecting the unbegotten and His powers, ought to be concealed? [Strom 5.12]

Rom 11:36 - Those who bestow laudatory addresses on the rich appear to me to be rightly judged not only flatterers and base, in vehemently pretending that things which are disagreeable give them pleasure, but also godless and treacherous; godless, because neglecting to praise and glorify God, who is alone perfect and good, “of whom are all things, and by whom are all things, and for whom are all things,” [Rom. xi. 36] they invest with divine honours men wallowing in an execrable and abominable life, and, what is the principal thing, liable on this account to the judgment of God [Quis Dives Salvetur 1]

stephan huller · 09-25-2011, 01:13 AM

Another parallel between the Marcionite text and Clement's text - 'among the Gentiles' doesn't appear in Rom 2.24:

Quote:

Rom 2.24 - "God’s name is dishonored because of them." (Strom 2.18)

Rom 2.24 - No, his attack was as clearly against the Jews as was his introduction of the prophetic rebuke, For your sakes the name of God is blasphemed. How preposterous then that he should himself blaspheme the God whom he rebukes evil men for causing to be blasphemed. (Against Marcion 5.13)

Iskander · 09-25-2011, 03:11 AM

Your wall posters

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

.................................................. .......................
.................................................. .........................

......... are pregnant with possibilities.

Vorkosigan · 09-25-2011, 03:17 AM

Awesome work. So you're saying that Gospel to the Egyptians was Clement's name for the Gospel that Paul wrote? This was the proto-Mark that Marcion brought with him?

Iskander · 09-25-2011, 03:59 AM

Marcion never was; it is only an invented phantom.

Thursday, August 4, 2011

Quote:

Marcion Was a Heretic Invented in the Third Century to Gloss Over the Controversies Associated with St Mark in Second Century Palestine

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/20...-in-third.html

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09-24-2011, 12:13 PM	#11
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Jay, I can't tell you how excited I am about this discovery. What is increasingly becoming clear to me is also that Romans - the epistle where Paul makes reference to 'his gospel' is repeatedly identified by Clement as the epistle where Paul makes reference after reference to passages from his gospel also referenced by Clement as the Gospel of the Egyptians. I can't tell you how important this is. This is more than a confirmation of Marcion doctrine (but I remember reading an article at Detering's site by a 'real' scholar of Marcionitism noting that Romans seems to know the gospel independent of the Clement angle). The point is that that Clement and Marcion agree. Paul not only had a gospel but makes reference throughout Romans to that gospel. And let me emphasize this for those who don't 'get it' yet. There's something else that I begin to suspect out of all of this. Let's start with the obvious. The changes made to the Pauline epistles weren't 'accidental.' They were more than anti-Marcionite. They were nothing short of a plot to hide the idea that the Apostle actually wrote a gospel. This can be proved I believe once I go through all the Epistles. But you know what is lying of the horizon just beyond this realization? That the gospels were deliberately arranged so as to hide this fact too (i.e. it wasn't just the Apostikon but 'the Gospel' (= now four). All the proofs of Paul citing directly from his gospel have been obscured or erased from the canonical four. The same would likely be true for the references cited by the Marcionite tradition (assuming they are different). Yet the ultimate realization is what Morton Smith hints at in the Secret Gospel. The story about the disciple being dead, resurrected and baptized is the basis for Pauline baptism. In other words, Paul is making reference to LGM 1 throughout (= the first addition to the Longer Gospel of Mark). So let me make this explicit for those who don't 'get it.' The apostle is making reference to a written gospel, not some oral teaching in Romans. This can now be proved. The only reason this hasn't been noticed before either (a) through the Epistle to the Romans itself (b) what the Marcionites say about Romans or (c) what Clement says about Romans is because scholars are wishy washy believers disguised as people engaging in science. I say, demolish the university departments and start over again.

09-25-2011, 03:17 AM	#19
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Awesome work. So you're saying that Gospel to the Egyptians was Clement's name for the Gospel that Paul wrote? This was the proto-Mark that Marcion brought with him?

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