Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-03-2005, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notsri

"Gaius Vibius Maximus, Prefect of Egypt [ca. AD 104], says: 'The census by household having begun, it is necessary to notify all who for any reason whatsoever are outside their districts to return to their own homes, that they may accomplish the customary dispensation of enrollment and continue steadfastly in the husbandry that belongs to them. Knowing, however, that some of the people from the countryside are required by our city, I desire all those who think they have a satisfactory reason for remaining here to register themselves before . . . Festus, the Calvary Commander, whom I have appointed for this purpose, from whom those who have shown their presence to be necessary shall receive signed permits in accordance with this edict up to the 30th of the present month E.... '"

- Greek papyrus no. 904, British Museum

This referred to CURRENT households, not places of birth. The Romans didn't care where you wre born, they wanted to know where you lived NOW so that they knew how to tax accordingly. Your place of birth was useless information to them and it would have been a beaurocratic nightmare to try to enforce anyway.

And it most definitely didn't happen under the census of Quirinius in 7 CE.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-03-2005, 11:38 AM

One more thing. Quirinius' census did not apply to Galilee so Joseph wouldn't have been affected by it regardless. Quirinius had no authority over him.

Fr.Andrew · 02-03-2005, 12:12 PM

Re: Moses.
According to what I've read (I'm not sure where, but I'll look around), Moses meant "son" in Egyptian. Thus Thutmose meant "son of Thoth", and Ramses meant "son of Ra"--Thoth and Ra being Egyptian gods.
Pharoah's daughter named her adopted son, "Son".

Notsri · 02-03-2005, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

This referred to CURRENT households, not places of birth. The Romans didn't care where you wre born, they wanted to know where you lived NOW so that they knew how to tax accordingly. Your place of birth was useless information to them and it would have been a beaurocratic nightmare to try to enforce anyway.

Diogenes, Luke says, "all went to be enrolled, each to his own city" (2:3). I'm not sure how this conflicts with the evidence from the Egyptian edict. Just as in the GLuke, Gaius required all to return to their respective fatherlands, each in the particular nome where, apparently, the family register was kept: "who for any reason...are outside their districts [i.e. their nomes] to return to their own homes." And clearly he wasn't asking for their return to their actual residences: "some of the people from the countryside are required by our city."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

And it most definitely didn't happen under the census of Quirinius in 7 CE.

No argument there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

One more thing. Quirinius' census did not apply to Galilee ...

This is irrelevant, is it not? For Luke's census - to use your words - "most definitely didn't happen under the census of Quirinius in 7 CE."

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-03-2005, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notsri

Diogenes, Luke says, "all went to be enrolled, each to his own city" (2:3). I'm not sure how this conflicts with the evidence from the Egyptian edict. Just as in the GLuke, Gaius required all to return to their respective fatherlands, each in the particular nome where, apparently, the family register was kept: "who for any reason...are outside their districts [i.e. their nomes] to return to their own homes." And clearly he wasn't asking for their return to their actual residences: "some of the people from the countryside are required by our city."

The Egyptian edict refers to current households, not "fatherlands." Some people lived outside the cities but had to work inside the cities for periods of time. That does not mean they actually LIVED full time in the cities but that they might not be able to go home at the time of the census. Luke says that Joseph had to return to Bethlehem from Galilee because that's where he was born. That is not something that ever would have been required. Furthermore, if Joseph was living in Galilee, then Quirinius had no authority to make him return to Bethlehem. He would have been a subject of Herod Antipas, not Quirinius.

Quote:

This is irrelevant, is it not? For Luke's census - to use your words - "most definitely didn't happen under the census of Quirinius in 7 CE."

Which means it didn't happen at all because there WAS no other census.

Amaleq13 · 02-03-2005, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Luke says that Joseph had to return to Bethlehem from Galilee because that's where he was born.

The claim is even less credible than that. He didn't have to go there because he was born there. He had to go there because it was David's hometown:

"and Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, that is called Bethlehem, because of his being of the house and family of David"(Lk 2:4, YLT)

There is no credible connection between Luke's idiotic requirement and the one for the Egyptian census.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-03-2005, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

The claim is even less credible than that. He didn't have to go there because he was born there. He had to go there because it was David's hometown:

"and Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, that is called Bethlehem, because of his being of the house and family of David"(Lk 2:4, YLT)

There is no credible connection between Luke's idiotic requirement and the one for the Egyptian census.

You're right. It's even more ludicrous than I thought. The Romans required people to return to traditional hometowns of ancient, legendary ancestors? 0_o

I don't think so. :down:

By the way, nobody was actually able to trace their ancestry back to David (who may or may not have existed in the first place) through any sort of documentation. We're talking about family legends at the very best....and after a thousand years practically everybody could probably claim some sort of descendancy from David but nobody could prove it, least of all the Romans...who couldn't have cared less anyway.

Anat · 02-04-2005, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trigger

There is debate as to whether or not Moses actually existed.Scholars already know Job never existed.

FYI the Talmud states Job never was and never existed but was a fable/example. (Iyov lo hayah w'lo nivra ella mashal hayah)

Anat · 02-04-2005, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

That's my understanding...and it happens to fit much better into Egyptian (than mangled Hebrew for the claim of "to draw out") with what I understand to mean along the lines of "son of".

If the biblical etymology were to hold he should have been named 'Mashui' (active and passive voice are interchanged).

Sensei Meela · 02-04-2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

FYI the Talmud states Job never was and never existed but was a fable/example. (Iyov lo hayah w'lo nivra ella mashal hayah)

I find this rather fascinating; how reliable is the Talmudic evidence? Does anything apart from that attest to the claim?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-03-2005, 11:38 AM	#22
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	One more thing. Quirinius' census did not apply to Galilee so Joseph wouldn't have been affected by it regardless. Quirinius had no authority over him.

02-03-2005, 12:12 PM	#23
Fr.Andrew Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Betsy's Bluff, Maine Posts: 540	Re: Moses. According to what I've read (I'm not sure where, but I'll look around), Moses meant "son" in Egyptian. Thus Thutmose meant "son of Thoth", and Ramses meant "son of Ra"--Thoth and Ra being Egyptian gods. Pharoah's daughter named her adopted son, "Son".

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.