Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-24-2007, 11:49 AM

Regarding one of my least favorite Fathers, St. John Chrysostom -

The footnote in Wikipedia is to Homily IX, paras.7-8: (Jehanne's link does not appear to have this Homily).

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf109.xix.xi.html

This contains a long argument about how God is evident in His creation, sort of like the current apologists who see the banana as proof of God.

Quote:

7. But I have yet somewhat more to say on this head. For not only, indeed, does the magnitude and beauty of the creation, but 403also the very manner of it, display a God who is the artificer of the universe. For since we were not present at the beginning, whilst he was engaged in the work of forming and creating all things; nor had we been present, could we have known how they came into being,14151415 See Job xxxviii. 4. the power that disposed them being invisible; He hath made the mode of this creation to become our best teacher, by compounding all things in a manner which transcends the course of nature. Perhaps what I have said, is not sufficiently clear. Therefore it is necessary that I should again repeat it in a clearer manner. All men, then, must admit that it is the course of nature for water to be supported on the earth, and not the earth on the waters. For the earth being a certain dense, hard, unyielding, and solid substance, is easily able to support the nature of water; but the water, which is fluid, and rare, and soft, and diffusive, and giving way to all it meets with, must be unable to support any solid body, though it were of the lightest kind. . . .

8. And who is there that must not feel astonished and amazed at these things; and confidently pronounce that they are not the works of nature, but of that Providence which is above nature? Therefore one speaks thus: “Who hangeth the earth upon nothing.”14191419 Job xxvi. 7. And another observes, “In His hands are the corners of the earth.”14201420 Ps. xcv. 4. And again: “He hath laid the foundation of it upon the seas.”14211421 Ps. xxiv. 2. And these declarations, though they seem contrary to one another, have yet an entire agreement. For he that said, “He hath laid the foundation of it upon the seas,” meant the same thing as he did who declared, “He hath hung it upon nothing.” For its standing upon the waters is just the same thing as hanging upon nothing. Where then is it suspended and placed? Hear the same one saying, “In His hands are the corners of the earth.” Not that God hath hands, but that thou mayest know that His power it is, providing for all things which holds together. . . .

But, lo! this wonder is found to exist in the heavens; and the prophet, again, to intimate this very circumstance, observes, “Praise the Lord, ye waters that are above the heavens.” 14271427 Ps. cxlviii. 4. Besides, the water hath not quenched the sun; nor hath the sun, which hath gone on his way beneath for so long a time, dried up the water that lies above.

That's all I can stand. It sounds like John believed in an earth firmly supported on a firmament. But if God does not have hands, does the earth have corners?

windsofchange · 08-24-2007, 12:02 PM

I hear people using expressions like "the four corners of the earth", "the ends of the earth", etc. all the time, but I'm sure if you questioned them you'd find they don't really believe in a flat earth. It's just an expression.

And the "four corners" could be understood as the 4 major compass points - North, South, East & West.

Hex · 08-24-2007, 12:06 PM

Aristotle used logic on astronomical observations to reason out that the earth was a sphere, based on shadows of the moon and visibility of stars as one moves north or south. All well and good, but it's not until

Eratosthenes that we get the first real calculations on it. He was the first to calculate the circumference of the Earth based on empirical observations of shadows in wells in Egypt. Not exactly spot-on, but pretty good for ~240 BC.

Seems to me (FWIW) that the flat-earth stuff would -not- have been a wide-spread secret amongst those who could read classical Greek. :huh:

Jehanne · 08-24-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsofchange

I hear people using expressions like "the four corners of the earth", "the ends of the earth", etc. all the time, but I'm sure if you questioned them you'd find they don't really believe in a flat earth. It's just an expression.

And the "four corners" could be understood as the 4 major compass points - North, South, East & West.

Saint Irenaeus believed in a flat-earth, which is why he said that there had to be four gospels:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeu...ation_of_canon

Cege · 08-24-2007, 12:44 PM

Jehanne, this link might be more to your point:

Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses:

The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is spread over all the earth, and the pillar and foundation of the Church is the gospel, and the Spirit of life, it fittingly has four pillars, everywhere breathing out incorruption and revivifying men. From this it is clear that the Word, the artificer of all things, being manifested to men gave us the gospel, fourfold in form but held together by one Spirit.

aa5874 · 08-24-2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hex

Aristotle used logic on astronomical observations to reason out that the earth was a sphere, based on shadows of the moon and visibility of stars as one moves north or south. All well and good, but it's not until

Eratosthenes that we get the first real calculations on it. He was the first to calculate the circumference of the Earth based on empirical observations of shadows in wells in Egypt. Not exactly spot-on, but pretty good for ~240 BC.

Seems to me (FWIW) that the flat-earth stuff would -not- have been a wide-spread secret amongst those who could read classical Greek. :huh:

Maybe the Church Fathers were reading the Greek copy of gMatthew 4.8, "Again the devil taketh him into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them."

Jesus and the Devil are flat earthers!

lee_merrill · 08-24-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trubble

"… yet so great a mass as the earth hath remained such a length of time lying upon the waters, without being either submerged, or dissolved, and destroyed!"

Seems pretty clear to me. A flat earth floating on "the waters".

But where is a claim here that the earth is flat? And again, I see no such references in the links Jehanne has posted, how about a quote, Jehanne, instead of this multitude of links?

lee_merrill · 08-24-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Maybe the Church Fathers were reading the Greek copy of gMatthew 4.8, "Again the devil taketh him into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them."

Jesus and the Devil are flat earthers!

That's interesting, you can identifiably see a kingdom from hundreds of miles. Not to mention its glory. But no, this is obviously describing a supernatural event.

Dreadnought · 08-24-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trubble

"… yet so great a mass as the earth hath remained such a length of time lying upon the waters, without being either submerged, or dissolved, and destroyed!"

Seems pretty clear to me. A flat earth floating on "the waters".

But where is a claim here that the earth is flat? And again, I see no such references in the links Jehanne has posted, how about a quote, Jehanne, instead of this multitude of links?

Is it your contention that he envisioned a spherical earth half submerged in water? Would that be any better? The obvious lesson here is: Don't let the bible be your guide in science. I've heard there are people that still struggle with this concept.

Trubble · 08-24-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

But where is a claim here that the earth is flat?

It's not stated in so many words as a "claim", but it seems pretty obvious to me from the context. "The whole earth...lying upon the waters..." As in lying on top of the water. And said earth lying with the water "in close contact with it below" -- meaning all of the earth on top, the water below. I can't imagine any configuration other than a flat, floating object. Can you?

08-24-2007, 12:06 PM	#73
Hex Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: www.rationalpagans.com Posts: 445	Please ... Aristotle used logic on astronomical observations to reason out that the earth was a sphere, based on shadows of the moon and visibility of stars as one moves north or south. All well and good, but it's not until Eratosthenes that we get the first real calculations on it. He was the first to calculate the circumference of the Earth based on empirical observations of shadows in wells in Egypt. Not exactly spot-on, but pretty good for ~240 BC. Seems to me (FWIW) that the flat-earth stuff would -not- have been a wide-spread secret amongst those who could read classical Greek. :huh:

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08-24-2007, 12:02 PM	#72
windsofchange Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: The achingly beautiful San Fernando Valley Posts: 2,206	I hear people using expressions like "the four corners of the earth", "the ends of the earth", etc. all the time, but I'm sure if you questioned them you'd find they don't really believe in a flat earth. It's just an expression. And the "four corners" could be understood as the 4 major compass points - North, South, East & West.

08-24-2007, 12:44 PM	#75
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	Jehanne, this link might be more to your point: Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is spread over all the earth, and the pillar and foundation of the Church is the gospel, and the Spirit of life, it fittingly has four pillars, everywhere breathing out incorruption and revivifying men. From this it is clear that the Word, the artificer of all things, being manifested to men gave us the gospel, fourfold in form but held together by one Spirit.

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