Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Angra Mainyu · 01-23-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

It's possible to define "miracle" out of existence by supposing that everything follows natural laws. But if one avoids defining miracles out of existence, then how does one tell what is and what is not due to natural law?

Perhaps we are stuck with a criterion like philosopher David Hume's, that we should accept the occurrence of some miracle only if its non-occurrence would be a bigger miracle.

But I don't think that approach works, precisely because of what you said in your first paragraph. How do you define "natural laws"?

Joan of Bark · 01-23-2009, 08:30 PM

Are Eddy and Boyd also willing to allow for the possibility of miracles in other religions? Or do they assume they can only occur within Judeo-Christianity?

lpetrich · 01-23-2009, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

It's possible to define "miracle" out of existence by supposing that everything follows natural laws. But if one avoids defining miracles out of existence, then how does one tell what is and what is not due to natural law?

Perhaps we are stuck with a criterion like philosopher David Hume's, that we should accept the occurrence of some miracle only if its non-occurrence would be a bigger miracle.

But I don't think that approach works, precisely because of what you said in your first paragraph. How do you define "natural laws"?

That's something that I had not thought through as much as I'd like, I will concede.

But a possibility is that "natural law" means a regularity that comes about in totally impersonal fashion, without the involvement of mind or consciousness or anything of that sort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Are Eddy and Boyd also willing to allow for the possibility of miracles in other religions? Or do they assume they can only occur within Judeo-Christianity?

That's rather typical of Xian apologists -- they seem reluctant to consider the possible truth of religions other than theirs. And that includes those religions' miracles.

Angra Mainyu · 01-23-2009, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

That's something that I had not thought through as much as I'd like, I will concede.

But a possibility is that "natural law" means a regularity that comes about in totally impersonal fashion, without the involvement of mind or consciousness or anything of that sort.

I'm not sure in which sense a regularity "comes about", but let's consider some examples:

1) Radioactive decay and other subatomic phenomena: If some of them do not behave in a regular way (only probabilistic predictions can be made, regardless of knowledge and cognitive abilities), would they qualify as miracles?

I would expect not, but I'm asking about the definition.

2) Human behavior: human behavior involves consciousness, though I'm not sure what you mean by "a regularity that comes about...", etc., but I suppose it has to be non miraculous; why would it not be miraculous?

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01-23-2009, 08:30 PM	#12
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Are Eddy and Boyd also willing to allow for the possibility of miracles in other religions? Or do they assume they can only occur within Judeo-Christianity?

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